.. to think council should pursue CURRENT tenant for c-tax and not drag me to court??

[Backt0Black]

Hoping someone on here can help? I'm getting nowhere with common sense with the council.

In Nov after a long running dispute with the landlord over various legal issues (I'll omit to keep this short, but happy to explain) I left a tenancy 7 months early (was 2.5 yr). I immediately informed council (both properties in same billing area) to pay final bill on old property and to take on bill at new property.

Landlord had re-marketed the property the month previously - hence my need to move quickly. During my move (back and forth with van) landlord entered the property with a band of his workmen and stole around £2000 worth of possessions (not that it matters but I'm heavily pregnant and this was a bit terrifying and can't believe the council are supporting this 'landlord') then returned to change the locks later in the week. So - effectively no access from Nov. (I was happy to hand existing keys to landlord in exchange for a receipt of return as he is quite dodgy)

Out of spite landlord has said to council I should retain the council tax liability until end of tenancy (June!)... despite the fact he has re-let the property to new tenants.

I appealed and wrote to council explaining the changed locks and new tenant and they STILL are holding me liable until June. Despite new tenant and the fact that I am happily paying them on a new property. They and are pushing ahead with court action ... I cant just pay... it's a huge bill - £280 a month on a high band! (will be on SMP soon!)

They have said my only recourse is to write another letter. I dont know what else I can say that there is another tenant in the property and that the landlord changing the locks was implied surrender?

They will no longer discuss verbally and feel like I am doomed to end up in court, never been through anything like this.

Any legal eagles with advice.... anyone been through similar and have takes of success.... or warning?

Hi All, Thank you all again for your input. It also sounds like quite a few have had shitty experiences :(

I'm just aghast at the onesided approach to resolution. ...

CTAX OFFICE: 'we will go to court' .. 'you will be liable for costs' ..'we will obtain an order' ...'you will be liable for further costs plus the amount of the order'

ME: yes but what if you are wrong, who is liable for the costs? there IS another tenant living in the property.

CTAX OFFICE (slightly louder) 'We are NOT wrong' 'the liability is correct'

ME: But why isnt the new tenant liable?

CTAX: Mrs XXXXX I WILL terminate this call, we are correct and I do not need to discuss this further.

How on earth is this fair or legal? As I said I ended up crying after the call, just out of pure frustration. It seems the council can demand what it likes and there is little right to reply.

Well I wrote to the MP yesterday....no reply.

I've also started something called a 'Valuation Tribunal' which to me sounded like it would only deal with re-banding but apparently deals with liability also.

While I can very easily prove new address (completion date from solictor and also the fact that the council are billing me for CTAX in the same county at the new address) what I'm struggling with is proving there IS a new tenant in. I have a screengrab of the letting advertisement on rightmove stating 'LET' ... the letting agent will not give me any info on when new tenant moved in (data protection) the council will not enter into discussion with me (see above) so I cannot ask them to visit, the landlord is throughly enjoying that I'm lumbered with it (and maybe dropped it as a plus point to new tenant) and the tenant has made no attempt to take council tax liability (enjoying the free ride!)

On Monday I will try again to get an appointment with the CAB, failing that I'm feeling like it may be worth paying for a quick consult with a legal firm? its quite a chunk of money at £280 per month for about 7 month of liability....

have you any email exchange with ex-ll regarding handing back key/return if deposit?

OP, that's a stupidly horrible attitude the council have given you. You say you have a receipt for handing back keys? So you have proof of not being able to live in the property. The landlord marketed it, in what way, something you have a screenshot or proof of? You have proof of where you live now and pay council tax there.

Hopefully you'll hear back from your MP soon, it may take a few days, don't fret. Technically until the end of the council tax year you haven't "not paid" so they can't do anything anyway. I know that's soon but it's not NOW.

At this point, after everything you've tried and with the proof you have, I'd be tempted to say fuck it, I'll go to court. The new tenants are the ones liable, OR the landlord if there are none. But not you, you don't live there! I thought, could be wrong, that all fine and dandy you can owe landlord for rent if you break tenancy (if that had happened) but not council tax as that is owed to council. Landlord must pay and if he thinks you should, he needs to persue seperately. After paying.

Good luck OP. Wish it was my council borough you lived in, I would've had a word with the council tax manager for you at work.

RE the new tenant, if council really wanted they could do a quick credit reference check to see who is named on the bills, ie: who lives there. Have you cancelled everything thst would've gone there in your name?

I'll admit I'm not the best person to advise with regards to debt but I have been told by debt advice type people that if you have a disagreement about any kind of debt DO NOT make any kind of arrangement or agreement about payments and do not give any money, if you do you are effectively 'accepting the debt'.

I would second what others have said, if you have proof you have been living elsewhere since you left the property then there really isn't much they can do to force you to pay it - you aren't liable if you aren't living there, especially since you are paying CT (and have proof) for another property.

I had a landlord try this once with housing benefit. He evicted us and then tried to make us (and the council) pay the rent/housing benefit until he got another tenant in. He was basically laughed out of the office at the council and I thought it highly amusing when the estate agent sent us an invoice for rent payments after we had left the property he did keep our whole deposit for no good reason though, the bastard

Hi All,

Quick replies.

Nothing from landlord to say we left. We are NC after several issues including a forced entry by him to steal possessions. .. he has also changed locks... his defence to the police was that we HAD left.... his story to the council tax is that we HAVE NOT left!?!?!

There is vast proof we live elsewhere. The councils own systems are billing me at my new address as my main residence (both in the same county). And also at the old address.... as my main residence :-S .. also have numerous solictors letters, banking docs, utility bills.

The council could do a credit check I suppose and very easily see that a new tenant is in situ.... the point is they dont want to as its an easy job to take me to court, which requires no effort than that they have already not expended.

I actually said on the phone yesterday 'as one HUMAN to another how can you think its fair for me to pay council tax for a property that someone else lives in and ALSO pay council tax property on my current residence. No reply. ... just more threats to terminate call

I would understand if these were 2 different billing counties..... but there they both sit on my bill in one county, one authority ONE HUGE SHOWER OF INCOMPETENT SH*T that I am being billed for TWO main residences. AGHHHH! £280 at one and £160 at another.

Sorry if you've already done this and I missed it, but have you made a formal complaint?

If you formally complain, specifically say "I am making a stage 1 complaint", list the issues and what you have done, also ask if they have performed a credit check to verify what landlord/you have told them. A formal complaint will go through different people who will then ask this team or person what their answers to it are and whether they have done xyz, in order to reply to you. If you don't like the answer, reply with "stage 2 complaint". This will go higher. Surely SOMEONE has to see sense about it eventually. If you have the means, I would say ask a solicitor to make the complaint and an information request so they have to reveal what they have done regarding your calls/landlord information and whether they've checked it out as you've disputed.

Hi Noodoodle - we did complain verbally. Then appeal in writing.

We laid out that there is a new tenant, the fact that they are billing us here also. And were told same, liability will not be removed and they will take us to court. And ... to put in writing why we do not agree with Theo decision.

I feel like I cannot put in writing anything more clear than:

• the landlord severed the tenancy, changed the locks and remarketed the property - so he should pay
• 'there is a new tenant' in the property - so they should pay
• you are already billing me at my new address. So you know and do actually accept I have left the old property
• I cannot afford to pay someone else bills you feckless bunch

I really cannot see what benefit they think another letter to re-repeat this info for them to also dismiss will yield.

Seems common sense is not prevailing

It's really not their prob but at this stage of my pregnancy (8.5 month) I'm just not enjoying the hassle and frustration. Hey ho.

How about the voters register? Could you see if new tenant is registered there or use a reverse look up type phone check on address?

I've fought various local government departments over the years. Never phone, put everything in writing, so you have proof. I would send them a written timeline. Date moved in, date moved out one property, date started paying CT on new property etc. As much info as possible.

Send with copies of any proofs. Relevant emails from LL, police, CT bills from them, etc. Send to CT dept, local councillor, MP, executive director of council (may have different title in your council - the top) .

Rather than talk to the recovery team, you need to talk to the billing team. Also, is it the same Council? Before we had a unitary authority in Cornwall, we had 6 Local Authorities in the county and in Devon, there are at least 4 or 5 Local Authorities who deal with CTax. If they are different authorities, then you need to sort them separately.

If you haven't already done so, you then need to ensure you have an unoccupied and unfinished exemption from the date you left. You also need to attend court and talk to the CTax officers who should be there, who can pull the application for a Liability Order and sort out the liability. You can be liable for two places at once, but if you've moved out of the rental, and the Council should be able to send a Visiting Officer to see who does live there, or contact the Letting Agent, who will tell them who is there then you should not have any liability.

An enormous hassle, I understand. People with legal knowledge - what would happen if the OP actually said "I am disputing this bill - take it to court and let them deal with it." Presumably the court could get hold of things like electricity bills which will show at what point the new tenants moved in?

Contact Shelter; 0808 800 4444
Contact Nearly Legal; twitter.com/nearlylegal

There is nothing to stop a person being liable for 2 (or more!) sets of Council Tax OP. For example, people with second homes. This isn't your defence. Your defence is that the property has been re-let from X date.

It really doesn't matter that you live elsewhere. What matters is that someone else now lives in the property you are being charged for and this is what you need to prove. Have you checked the electoral roll? Although if the tenants are quite new they probably won't be registered yet.

You could allow the council to apply for the summons and then appear at the magistrates court hearing when they apply for the liability order and defend yourself, or get a solicitor or a McKenkie Friend to represent you.

There are only 8 legal defences to the grant of a liability order so you will need to prove one of them. they are;:

There are 8 legal defences in Council Tax legislation against the issue of a Liability Order:

1. There was no entry in relation to the dwelling in the valuation list effective for the period for which the defendant is alleged to have been liable to pay the council tax
2. That the tax had not been properly set
3. That the tax had not been demanded in accordance with the statutory provisions or no joint & several taxpayers notice has, where appropriate, been served
4. That the amount demanded has been paid
5. That more than 6 years have elapsed since the day on which the sum became due
6. That the Billing Authority was in breach of the duty to serve notices “as soon as practicable” in the relevant year in compliance with Reg 19(1) of the Admin & Enforcement Regulations
7. That the sum outstanding is in respect of a penalty which is the subject of an appeal or arbitration
8. That bankruptcy or winding up proceedings have been initiated

Oddly none of them mention not being liable to be the council tax payer!

What you need to do OP is write down clearly (bullet points probably good as the Council seem determined to mis-understand you!) the relevant dates.
Date you gave notice to quit
Date you returned keys to LL
Date LL changed the locks
Date LL re-marketed the property
Date LL re-let the property

If you can speak to the letting agents (if there is one) and get their corroboration that the property has been re-let.

You need to stop dealing with the recovery officers though. You need to speak to someone in authority. If a liability order is granted then things will take off and costs will escalate as soon as bailiffs get involved.

Also, write/email the CT manager and copy this to your local councillors and M.P.

Good luck OP.

Hi yogadrone

Firstly huge thanks for all of your advice on this.

Totally agree my defence is there IS a tenant in situ. They are liable not me. I just

Hadn't finished!!

I mention the other property as people keep asking can I prove live elsewhere and is it same are. Yes and yes.

The council have had a bullet list which states

The landlord severed tenancy
We had no access since move date of 17 Nov due to landlord changing locks
A new tenant arrived in Dec

All disregarded by billing and by recovery team as landlord he supplied them with original tenancy agreement stating we were due to stay until June. Their letter of reply states we are liable until tenancy end, and that this would stand even if properly unoccupied and the exception would be if a new let was agreed. (IT HAS BEEN. READ MY LETTER PROPERLY AND STOP SENDING STANDARD REPLIES AND DOING THE BARE BARE MINIMUM!!!!)
Letting agent will not help due to data protection.

Like PP's I am wondering about just letting them take me to court and getting the benefit of laying out (again) that the property is re-let to someone who may actually listen.

In the meantime though I will re-send the letter of appeal as requested by them. Referring the to their own reference on a new pet being an exception.

As soon as I have another standard rebuff I am going to have to get a solicitor and buckle up to court I guess..... Just seems such a waste of money (mine and public money) and time for the sake of them not listening.

It must be incredibly worrying and frustrating, particularly after the appalling way the landlord has behaved Backt0Back. Your council seem to be being incredibly pig-headed about not chasing the new tenant.

Have you checked the dates of the liability they are charging you for? You could always try the route of telling them that you moved out on x Nov '16 and tell them you want to claim the empty and unoccupied 3 month exemption. This will force a recalculation of the liability and potentially reset the recovery process they are following. Anything you have to prove this would be helpful. Also, the local paper might be interested in your story (start perfecting your Daily Mail "Sad face" now ). Definitely write to your local councillors though (I know you say you've written to you MP already).

Turning up at court might not be a bad idea, although I'd recommend that you tell the council that you plan to defend the grant of the L.O. in person - mainly because otherwise they will just say to the magistrates that they don't have the paperwork they need and ask them to adjourn your case and then you'll have had a wasted journey, and expense if you've engaged a solicitor.

Hi All - I wanted to come back and update. Thanks to everyone who commented and gave great advice..... broadly.... we've WON, thank you all!

After writing to my MP and cc'ing them on all comms back and forth the council tax lot decided we weren't such an easy 'win' in court and after declining multiple times to do so decided to look into the fact that the property HAD been let to new tenants.

They have however sent a somewhat snotty letter to inform us that the property has been re-let (we know we told you FIVE TIMES!). No apology for making the last few months so miserable and for reducing me to tears (39 weeks pregnant, emotional, stressed and just got so frustrated!) by refusing to listen or discuss the matter in anyway preferring to bark on loop that "the liability is correct, we will pursue the recovery through the courts, will secure an order and we do not have to enter into discussion outside of a formal or legal process"

In all I'm relieved but feel very annoyed that it has taken such effort and worry to stop such a obviously silly court appearance (which the taxpayer would have had to fund) and that they were happy to pursue me for £2000 for their ease rather than just picking up the phone to a letting agent who would have confirmed in 30 seconds that a new tenant was in situ.

Thank you ALL for your help on this

Oh, well done!

Oh I am so pleased to read this. I didn't comment on the thread originally but read it at the time and was shocked at the appalling inaccuracy and idiocy.

If you have the strength then maybe now pursue a complaint against them. It's appalling that they have not even apologised.

Yeah

Oh I am pleased that it has now all been resolved. As a council employee, but not anything to do with ctax honest!, I'm appalled at the way you have been treated. I would urge you to make a formal complaint about the amount of time this has taken you to resolve and the appalling way you have been spoken to.

being sent to work in the Ctax office is considered a punishment in my local authority btw

Maybe just have a little look here

I would make a formal complaint and once that has gone from stage 1 to stage 2 refer it to the local government ombudsman

Thanks All ...... you know I think I WILL complain.... thank you for that link

I'm furious with 'robo-cow'... the we will purse you in court' woman she could hear how frustrated and worried (and embarrassingly - tearful)I was and refused to entertain a discussion, she had decided on the outcome of the whole case! I asked what would happen with court costs in the event they were found to be wrong on the liabiilty? ...her reply?? 'We're not, we have not made a mistake and we will purse you for the full amount' '

It annoys me that they are allowed to just 'lock down' to refuse to discuss ...and that I had to PROVE I didn't owe the money rather than they prove I did. Even when supplied with all the contact info for the letting agent to confirm new tenant they would not just pick up the phone to confirm, preferring to pursue a court order against me.... why should I have to have written so many letters and begged MP for help???

I WILL complain and I will also ask if it is possible to gain a copy of the tape of the call (thinking DPA or freedom of info act) where robo-cow was dealing out her venom. I appreciate she has a job to do but I think the whole think is a misuse of 'power' and bullying.