.. to think council should pursue CURRENT tenant for c-tax and not drag me to court??

[Backt0Black]

Hoping someone on here can help? I'm getting nowhere with common sense with the council.

In Nov after a long running dispute with the landlord over various legal issues (I'll omit to keep this short, but happy to explain) I left a tenancy 7 months early (was 2.5 yr). I immediately informed council (both properties in same billing area) to pay final bill on old property and to take on bill at new property.

Landlord had re-marketed the property the month previously - hence my need to move quickly. During my move (back and forth with van) landlord entered the property with a band of his workmen and stole around £2000 worth of possessions (not that it matters but I'm heavily pregnant and this was a bit terrifying and can't believe the council are supporting this 'landlord') then returned to change the locks later in the week. So - effectively no access from Nov. (I was happy to hand existing keys to landlord in exchange for a receipt of return as he is quite dodgy)

Out of spite landlord has said to council I should retain the council tax liability until end of tenancy (June!)... despite the fact he has re-let the property to new tenants.

I appealed and wrote to council explaining the changed locks and new tenant and they STILL are holding me liable until June. Despite new tenant and the fact that I am happily paying them on a new property. They and are pushing ahead with court action ... I cant just pay... it's a huge bill - £280 a month on a high band! (will be on SMP soon!)

They have said my only recourse is to write another letter. I dont know what else I can say that there is another tenant in the property and that the landlord changing the locks was implied surrender?

They will no longer discuss verbally and feel like I am doomed to end up in court, never been through anything like this.

Any legal eagles with advice.... anyone been through similar and have takes of success.... or warning?

Though not the same circumstances as you, I had something similar a few years ago when a CT bill suddenly turned up for a flat I'd lived in years before. I explained that I'd not lived there for nearly ten years but the councils attitude (not the same council I was living under at the time) was, tough prove it, or we'll take you to court. I think I was just the least dodgy person to have lived there and it was easier for the LL to give my name to the council for chasing the debt rather than any other of the subsequent tenants. All it took was a letter from my bank to the council concerned to confirm I had not lived there for ten years and they dropped it straight away.

"Tenants are liable to the end of the tenancy , not the vacating date . This has just been proven in a judgement."

This is wrong.

Which judgment are you talking about? If it is Leeds CC v Broadley it is not relevant to his case

The legislation is here:

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/14/section/6

The order of priority goes down to "owner". Owner comes behind any kind of 'resident'. 'Owner' means someone with a 'material interest'. This typically includes a contracted tenant .

Therefore if the property is EMPTY, the 'owner', i.e. the tenant, is likely to be liable for council tax.

However as soon as someone else moves in, they, as the resident, usurp any liability for the mere 'owner'.

Potentially, the landlord has illegally evicted you from the property. I would 100% speak to Shelter regarding this matter.

Illegal eviction is a criminal offence.

m.england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/eviction/harassment_and_illegal_eviction_by_landlord/illegal_eviction

Speak to your local councillor. You can find information about who they are and when they have surgeries on the council web site.

This will be more effective than trying to escalate with council officers IME.

So do the council not have anyone down other than you to pay council tax there?

I have paid council tax for two houses whilst renting despite only living in one of them but was as I moved into this house while there was still a month left on old contract. Was a pain as had to then pay full rate instead of single person discount rate as I didn't live there anymore .

Did you leave early because the landlord made you leave or was it your choice?

I agree with the other posters - get your ducks in a row OP and take your occupancy dates, any emails/correspondence, any utility or other bills which show your new address and anything you may have (removals or van rental perhaps) to show that you no longer live at the property they are trying to charge you for.

rosehippy is totally correct. Unoccupying tenants are liable providing there is no other occupier.

I guess the new tenants could claim that the property is not their sole/main residence, particularly if they don't have an official tenancy agreement but I think it would still be arguable that it is the OP's bill as she has no ability to occupy the property as the landlord has changed the locks. Although OP says that the landlord re-marketed the property so this seems unlikely.

The elements of occupation are:

1. actual (nope!)
2. excusive (double nope!)
3. beneficial (nope)
4. not too transient a period (doesn't really apply)

The only thing the council have here is the tenancy agreement and I think you can refute that with the landlords correspondence and the re-marketing of the property.

Also, the council should have property inspectors on staff. I imagine they would have them to inspect new builds for completion dates and checking on uninhabitable properties. They need to get one of them round to the property and ascertain who lives there and actually do some investigation. At the moment they are taking the path of least resistance which is the OP and her tenancy agreement until June.

I hope your appointment went well OP. Perhaps your scary midwife could go to the Council on your behalf?!

They told me you can only be registered as living at one property for council tax.
You shouldn't have to pay twice.
i'd either get a solicitor, your MP involved, and definitely CAB.

ooops, poor mistake there, sorry. Should read:
"it would still be arguable that it is NOT the OP's bill as she has no ability to occupy the property "

I agree you should make an appointment at CAB

Hi this happened to me.

I moved out of a flat - told the council paid final bill

A year later new house 300 miles away Got a letter saying I owed liverpool City council 1500 for the last years council tax.
Rang the council someone had rung the council and told themi was still there. I said I'd supplied them with evidence of end of tenancy - they didn't giv a shit because the mysterious caller had told them that is decided to renew rather than leave. I called my old landlord who wouldn't help.

Bailiffs threatened me so I wrote a letter before action to both the debt recovery and the city council (sent it to the head of legal and the chief executive emails ) detailing all of evidence of me moving out and a claim for harassment. Got a letter back straight away saying they had got it wrong. Plus they owed me money because i had over paid when I was there

Could you do something similar?

Personally I would take this to my local councillor first. After all, this is a council matter.

CAB might be useful if they have someone there well versed in rating law. Otherwise the hierarchy of occupation, which is laid down in the LGFA 1992, is your friend here OP. The actual section extract is below. It's the Local Government Finance Act 1992, Section 6:

Local Government Finance Act 1992 Section 6
(1) The person who is liable to pay council tax in respect of any chargeable dwelling and any day is the person who falls within the first paragraph of subjection (2) below to apply, taking paragraph (a) of that subsection first, paragraph (b) next, and so on.

(2) A person falls within this subsection in relation to any chargeable dwelling and any day, if on that day –

(a) he is a resident of the dwelling and has a freehold interest in the whole or any part of it;

(b) he is such a resident and has a leasehold interest in the whole or any part of the dwelling which is not inferior to another such interest held by another such resident;

(c) he is both such a resident and a statutory or secure tenant of the whole or any part of the dwelling;

(d) he is such a resident and has a contractual licence to occupy the whole or any part of the dwelling’

(e) he is such a resident; or

(f) he is the owner of the dwelling [where unoccupied]

Where did he remarket the property? Was it in a newspaper?

For those saying make an appointment with CAB, have any of you ever tried to get an appointment?

It's easier to find ticking horse shit

Seriously op will be 101, cab area seriously underfunded and the waiting list is massive

If you get no joy with the council then tell them you are taking the matter to the Local Government Ombudsman.

Don't tell/ talk to a government body. Email so you have a paper trail that can verify what you have shown, given sorted with them.

You have to have gone through the Council's own complaints procedure before the Ombudsman will accept the case MrsMoastyToasty, but certainly raise an official complaint if you get no joy from a meeting with the team manager.

The reason I recommend speaking to the CT Manager is because s/he is most likely to have the best understanding of the law. Usually the way a Council complaint is dealt with is to give the complaint to another department to investigate. This person have even less grasp of the law than the person/people OP has already dealt with.

If local councillor can't/won't help speak to your MP.

Hi All I'm back!

Firstly THANK YOU for the replies. I have to confess I ended up crying tears of frustration after the call to the recovery team. They would not enter into discussion on why they would not purse the new tenant for c-tax and just kept repeating 'you will be liable for court costs, we will secure an order' it just seemed common sense was not valid.

I feel better even knowing someone (you guys) have actually heard and understood the issue rather than just quoting process (regardless of actual rights / wrongs) at me like recovery have. Some points I've spotted with outstanding questions....

• can I prove I have moved. I rang them to advise of the move and they have been very happily billing for my new home since the move date. Unsurprisingly. I also have completion dates from my solicitor.

• are both properties same 'county / borough' ..yes, both Durham.

• why have I not sued for the £2000 stolen property.... landlord is a villain, went bedroom to bedroom with a van full of his workmen taking possessions, he has had various brushes with the lay,and has even had a couple of cannabis farms in his various let properties . I just wanted him out of my life and to draw a line under it, I do not want him exacting any more revenge at my new address or any further contact.

Did I choose to end the tenancy or the landlord. Well - this is all related the the breakdown of the tenancy, again happy to explain, but did want to try and keep short...but if you're up for a tangled web........ read on . .........

We found out AFTER signing tenancy what sort of guy the landlord really was (see above). We paid him in full on time for 18 months ... it then became apparent that he wouldnt deliver on some stables he promised to build part of the tenancy (in writing) on the land that came with the house, I was fed up of my horses shivering despite the fact we'd contributed towards materials. .. so we reduced the rent we paid. He DID then apply for planning permission using my name! stating fraudulently we had a TEN year lease (nope 2.5 yr) he also signed my name! ... which was granted. Neighbours are up in arms as feel he will use this to craftily build another house (he was in court / the papers for attempting same 4 years ago) ... anyway, stables were never built, what he did do instead is start making huge winding access roads clearly for a house.... my horses don't drive!), ripping out field fencing without prior notice leaving our horses to roam onto the A-roads.... this happened easily 7-8 times. We asked several times that he please not just send workmen to remove fences... It continued... we rarely had a day without workmen so had no privacy. After another release of the horses and large vet bill (and the worry that he still wouldn't stop and it was a matter of time before a serious road accident was caused and we were left to explain why the horses were on an A roads and maybe through some poor drivers windscreen)so we then progress to flatly withhold rent each time I had to collect horses from the road.

All of the above re horses, planning permission, no stables, fencing being ripped away isnt really valid re c-tax. But it was asked.... so there you go. God it reads like a bad episode of Eastenders.

roseshippy the judgement I quoted is relevant when the property is empty (as noted I had problems, fortunately minor, on the other side). As you know, a landlord can only end a tenancy by going to court or accepting a deed of surrender. The problem here is that the tenancy was for a longer fixed term and neither happened. The tenant wanted to (and did) leave and the landlord's 'loss' is ended by installing a new tenant.

As I said, the property is not empty so if the council had a peanut of common sense the liability is for the new tenant. The idea of the local MP is a good one if he/she isn't a safe-seat-time-server. Mayor? Head of council? Local paper?

I also think the OP was illegally evicted. The update shows more issues but none are relevant to the council tax and the council won't care because thinking about it creates work. If they are like mine, they accept any declaration of end of liability without checking.

"the judgement I quoted is relevant "

you didn't quote a judgement though.

which one are you talking about?

I should say that as a result of us witholding rent after collecting the horses off the road (one injured) again the landlord then let us know he was remarketing with immediate effect and asked for access to take pics.

It was at this point I was forced to expedite my move and had us scrabbling for an early completion. I was always going to move but expected more like April time and just paying an double month and letting landlord keep bond.

Anyhoooo all of the rent issue and stables etc is aside from the c-tax

What a nutcase. Some landowners are unhinged. Glad you were able to get away.

I'm not sure if any one has posted this further up as I only read the first few comments but here's my take:

If you don't have a deed of surrender to release you from the tenancy and he changed the locks and re-let the property as far I'm aware legally speaking he has broken the law and you can actually pursue a civil case against him -

www.landlordzone.co.uk/content/abandonment

I had a property where the tenant had abandoned the property part tenancy whilst in rent arrears and still had to go theorugh the hassle of getting a possession order just so there were no further repercussions on advice from a solicitor friend.

My advice would be to do your research on this and write a letter quoting the laws and regulations on him essentially taking possession of your rented property whilst you were in contract and the legal occupant. send a copy to him too not just the council so he gets the wind up his arse and drops it - if he thinks that you're prepared to take him to court he'll soon drop it.

Years ago, I have notice and moved out of a horrific flatshare. All bills paid up.

Once my evil ex flat mate starts getting council tax demands as she hadn't paid it, she uses an old phone bill to get my mum's number. Rings, makes up some bullshit about forwarding on post, then my mum gets a bailiffs letter for the council tax I didn't owe.

My mum told them to fuck off leave her alone as it was nothing to do with her. And they did.

Surely this comes under the remit of demanding money with menaces.