West London living - are we hellish neighbours?

[user1486017891]

Mums - please help!! My partner, 3 year old daughter and I live in West London. Until recently we lived in a top floor one bedroom flat in a converted Victorian building which we had lived in as a couple. This was hard... no bedroom for my daughter, too many stairs, limited space.
After making our peace with the fact that we can NO WAY afford to buy what we want, in December we rented out our flat and rented a new one close by (also closer to the school we want her to go to). This is a ground floor flat in a similar converted house with much more space, a bedroom for my daughter and a garden -actually the back half of a garden that is split with our neighbours in the basement flat.
We love it and thought moving would be a real life changer - able to enjoy time at home instead of constantly going to parks... daughter could have playdates, etc.
But within weeks of moving here, the neighbours downstairs complained about noise and have done so twice since. The first time, a Saturday morning, they came up and knocked on the door. Second time it was a conversation by the bins. Each time they said they had contacted the landlord.
Last night, the landlord forwarded me a further complaint that they had written to him and asked me if I would contact them to sort things out. He is lovely and would clearly rather not be involved.
Basically, they say they can hear us moving around from early morning to the early hours and it is unbearable. They say my daughter is up late running the length of the flat squealing and my partner and I talk loudly and move around till the early hours.
In both my conversations with them I've been really apologetic and said we would try to keep noise down. They've also been civil, acknowledging that everyone has to live and it's difficult because there is little insulation in these old houses. They say how sweet my daughter is and how they want to get on with us. But the continuous contacting of the landlord - three times in just over a month - tells a different story . It seems so aggressive and I feel they want us out.
The flat is carpeted and, since the first complaint, I've made everyone take off their shoes. My partner and I both go to work and daughter is at nursery school from 9 to 3 - one of us picks her up and she is back at home by 4 earliest. Normally we try and get her to sleep at 8 but I admit her sleeping is a bit erratic and sometimes she just won't settle till later (normally because she has napped earlier in the afternoon after getting back from school exhausted). She is a normal lively 3 year old who jumps and skips and bounces and fidgets.
I have been trying to keep everyone quiet but am at my wit's end. I don't know what more I can do - I can't chop my daughters legs off. It feels like the neighbours are trying to deny our right to a normal existence.
My partner is furious about the whole situation... says they are trying to bully us and I am being a people pleaser instead of standing up for my family. It is causing stress in our relationship and last night we were up arguing about how to deal with it - no doubt intensifying the problem....
We are paying a fortune in rent but feel we can't have people or round or enjoy the flat in the way we had hoped because we are so paranoid. My daughter has had only one playdate - I was so stressed about having two of them jumping around that it's never been repeated. I don't even feel comfortable in the garden because it puts us in close contact with the downstairs neighbours who have the other half.
They are a couple in their 60s I guess - seem to be retired - living with an adult daughter. Our flat has been rented out for years but last tenant was a single female working full time and probably out in the evenings - so of course they are going to notice the difference.
I can't ignore them as the landlord has asked me to deal with the problem. So what do I say? I don't want to apologise any more for my daughter being herself. But I do love the flat and have to work this out if we are going to stay.
Other info - we can sometimes hear them talking loudly and also hear the single man living above walking around. This does not upset us. My partner has a son who lives with his mum and sometimes comes at weekends but is not noisy. I am not sure the neighbours have even cottoned on to that yet (thank god!)

Other info - we can sometimes hear them talking loudly and also hear the single man living above walking around. This does not upset us.

I don't think you can really compare that to a family plus 3yo! So, of course it wouldn't upset you, probably wouldn't upset them. It does show that minimal noise can get through so I can imagine they are putting up with quite a bit.

I don't know what you can do other than move somewhere where you are at the bottom of the house (noise mostly carries downwards), or a cheaper area of London where you could have a house, or to a flat where you know the people around are working.

Our neighbour is an old lady. We share a fairly small area of wall and I am always so conscious of noise (like you, we can hear a low conversation in her house so goodness knows what she can hear from us). I try and keep the kids to the other half of our house so not in the rooms adjoining her as much as possible, but it's hard. She's never complained but whenever she goes away we are so much more relaxed and it makes a real different to our happiness. I would definitely prefer to live next to working/ younger people.

I feel your pain and theirs.
Our neighbours have young children and we hear everything. And it seems magnified.We hear plugs being plugged in, every door close. Things like lego brick being put back into a plastic crate. The kids on ride ons up and down the lounge. All normal stuff that should happen and isn't over the top noise. We find if we can work out what the noise is it helps. Do was being driven insane one day and it was the baby picking up and dropping a ball. I happened to see what was happening and as soon as I told him what the noise was he was completely ok with it. So maybe invite them in to see your life and they will realise you are not being deliberately loud. Once the weather is better encourage the kids into the garden for play dates so again they can see where the noise is coming from.
Failing all of this next time you move avoid conventions!

We lived in the downstairs flat of a converted house in North London.The family upstairs included a three year old that used to scoot from one end of their wooden floored flat to the other.It was super loud, but we just accepted it as part of London living.
You hardly seem to be creating excess noise-you are just going about your daily lives.
I was in the reverse situation when we moved to our house now.We had two under two and they were early risers. Our older neighbours complained that they could hear our kids through the wall. I felt paranoid and tried my best to shush them both for months-even taking one out in the car at 6am once so her crying wouldn't disturb the neighbours.But it was impossible to live life like that-they were kids just making normal kid level (not excessive ) noise in what was a family house.
Eventually when they came round to complain again I firmly said to them that although it wasn't ideal, and we were trying-it's impossible for a family with two small kids to live in silence.(i may also have pointed out that the large fountain in their pond was left on all night and sounded like sodding Niagara Falls).
I think you just need to be firm but polite-and obvs try and keep the noise to a minimum but not to the point where you can't live your life.

Merry I'm sorry but I think keeping the children away from half the house, due to shared wall is madness.

You don't have to live like this! I live in a terrace, I can hear my neighbour's pet birds cheeping! I can hear them doing a wee in the night (if I'm awake, it's not loud enough to wake me up), doing the hoovering, playing music, having friends over for a BBQ. Over the years, I've heard the odd very loud row and swear word, only occasional. My children run up and down the stairs, sometimes mess about and play and shriek (very rarely now they are teens), sometimes we have a row too!

This is normal everyday noise. I get on well with both sets of neighbours and have asked them about the noise. We all agree that we are happy with the amount of noise, which is about living side by side in a small space! No-one does anything noisy after 10 o clock, 11 on weekends, and we are all up around 7 and may shut doors/run car engines if frosty.

I think creeping around in your own home is ridiculous. Older people may not necessarily mind, they may be hard of hearing and have their TV loud themselves, plus when you live in flats/terraces/poorly insulated houses, that's just the way it is. I wouldn't encourage the OP to creep about in her own home, nor to look for a basement flat if she has a 3 year old unless she wants to.

Our house is not a conversion, I've heard neighbour noise from every terrace I've ever lived in, including whole conversations!

My first two years in the UK were spoiled by the neighbors like yours, OP. It was exactly the same-we rented the first floor maisonette flat, and before us it was rented by a childless couple. We had a 6yo and a baby and obviously we did make some noise. We have moved out, rented a small house and have been much happier.
One of my friends is a landlord and recently he has turned down a couple with a toddler from renting a top floor flat in a modern purpose built block of flats, because he said the neighbors will complain to him about noise and he wants an easy life.

I had middle aged neighbours exactly like this...don't think about their own noise but constantly complain about everyone else. We owned our flats so was a bit different...started with noise complaints such as my walking and then even asked me to not access my garden as i had to pass her window and it disturbs her
Anyway that was the proverbial straw and i told her she needs to buy a house if she's that sensitive.

Unfortunately this is living in crappy conversions where they haven't wanted the expense of putting proper insulation in. I feel for both parties, but they are being ridiculously picky about normal noises like walking and talking. I would look for a new place and tell your landlord why so he/she can look at sorting something out for future tenants. If you need or want to stay, you could try putting rugs down on the carpet in high traffic areas to deaden the sound a bit and make sure that you keep your voices down if you are up late. I hope you manage to get it sorted.

OP YANBU
I would ignore them. Be very clear to the landlord that you are not doing anything out of the ordinary, you have carpet, you take your shoes off, you don't make noise during the night. Maybe tell him you are happy to have a noise-recording thing inside to prove the noise level is normal.

I have seen several friends change the way they live to accommodate downstairs neighbors, it is never enough, they always complain about something else. They are on edge all the time, stress out if their toddler drops something on the floor etc. Hence my advice not to change anything and tell them that the noise you are making is acceptable.

Unrelated to the noise problem, but be careful about using a rented property address as a school admissions address if you own a property close by. Many councils will only accept the address of the property you own as your 'real' address, even if this property is rented out. Do check the rules before relying on your rented property in order to secure a school place.

eg, this from my west London council website: If you own a property which is, or has previously been, used as your home address and you state that you are living at, and apply from, a different address, we will treat the second address as temporary. Therefore, we will use the address of the property which you own as the valid address for school
admissions purposes.

This is a problem in London as family properties have become unaffordable and families move into typical single and couple-occupied spaces. It does sound as though you're doing your best to be a good neighbour but as far as they are concerned, they've lost their "quiet enjoyment" of their flat and garden. These conversions just weren't done with family occupation in mind.

I have no suggestions, but don't buy a dog...

Its not just conversions. I lived in a brand new build a few years ago. We could hear everything from them weeing in the night to having sex. Their footsteps were so loud it sounded like someone was in the house with us.

YANBU. Choose between moving and standing up to them. But don't expect to get on with them or for them to be satisfied because it just wont happen. Their expectations are unreasonable.

I'm amazed how crap insulation must be or that mine is really well insulated. I can't hear my upstairs neighbours ever - even TV or washing machine or tell which room they are in!

Firstly YANBU

I would take round some flowers or a bottle of wine. State landlord has contacted you about their complaints, you want to sort it, but you can't apologise for what is a normal family life. Tell them that you have removed shoes, get all 3 of you to tip toe about as not to make noise. Obviously if your daughter is being mischievous there's little that can be done. You are trying hard, you have the same noises from the flat above, but to you it's what happens when you have upstairs neighbours.

Tell them rather than squealing to the landlord, why not come and talk to us. We're not unreasonable and as you've said you've taken measures to try and rectify things. Apart from floating around the flat and talking via sign language, you are at a loss what to do.

Again say you have tried your best and will continue to do so. It's making you feel uneasy like you can't enjoy life in an expensive apartment. You don't have friends round, you don't have play dates round. It's really impacting your lives.

Hopefully they'll have some bloody common sense and realise they need to adjust to it.

They're being unreasonable not you.

I found this post hard to read with no paras so I hope I haven't missed anything.

"They say my daughter is up late running the length of the flat squealing and my partner and I talk loudly and move around till the early hours"

is that actually true? If your daughter is running the length of the flat squealing - and often, and for long periods - that must be a nightmare for them. Do you talk loudly? I accept you have to move around (!) but do you have talk loudly?

I have a naturally loud friend who stays here quite a bit (I'm in a block of flats) and I have actually said to her to lower her voice. One reason we get on well in this block is at the moment we have a nice bunch of people who are considerate. (hasn't always been the case). The kids upstairs were jumping and squeeing a lot on Dec 23rd but it was the first time I'd heard them do that. Rest of the time their parents work hard at keeping them quiet.

I think the landlord should provide better insulation though. Rubber matting under carpets would help a lot.

We lived in a similar conversion and part of the issue was neighbours attitude that as we were renters we were second class to the owners and should know our place

Brace yourself OP, they sound like previous neighbours we had. They complained about the noise the first day we moved in and within a week had got onto environmental health. We didn't even have any children at that stage! The police were regularly called about the noise, they used to come out, see that we had had the floor double under-felted, no music system etc, wore no shoes in the flat. We were at work most of the time! They were elderly and seemed to have nothing better to do. In the end they started throwing fruit and eggs on our car.

Apologize to them, explain that you are perplexed at the "noise" as you aren't in most of the time and suggest that they get the noise pollution department to set up monitors.

YANBU. If you live in close proximity to other people you should expect noise. If your neighbours don't want to hear other people they need to get themselves a DETACHED house. Unless you are having regular parties past 11 etc then there is nothing you are doing that is unreasonable. Why should you have to tip toe around your flat because people with unrealistic expectations live under you? Please, don't let your neighbours put you off letting your daughter be a child- they make noise, just as I expect their adults daughter did when she was young. You've been good enough to try your best, taking shoes off etc is considerate, but they are expecting far too much.

I've got really thin walls with next door. Sometimes her house is making a noise, sometimes my house is full of noise. I can hear all the swears coming from her house in the mornings when her kids won't get up Neither of us complain as it's part and parcel of living in close proximity to other people!!

Elderly neighbours complaining about noise seems to be a common problem, like with the piano thread earlier this week.
I can relate to other peoples experiences because I've got an elderly viper neighbour who had horrible tenants in before me (I know they were because I used to live next to them on another street) so when I moved in with kids she assumed we'd be the same and started trouble from day one. I don't get why she would choose to live in a three bed Council flat with another identical one upstairs if she wanted peace and quiet.

YANBU, some people just love to complain. When our first DC was born we lived a block of 6 or 7 flats, a couple like the one you've described lived on the ground floor on the other side of the building who had taken it upon themselves to make themselves 'committee of the building' and would piss everyone off, they'd be all fake smiles but we knew if we'd seen them it meant another passive aggressive note as there was no other reason for them to be on the top floor. We just completely ignored their requests, started posting their shitty notes back through their door along with one stating we'd take legal action if the harassment didn't stop. It didn't stop their complaining to the landlord but it did stop the notes, we eventually moved for another reason but honestly, it's not worth worrying over, I would start ignoring them entirely, if they ask why just say that the current method of conveying all messages through the landlord seems to work very well for them.

Talking as someone who lives in a basement flat with a family with two young children in the flat above, (in a one bedroom flat!) I can confirm that it is absolute hell! The running and jumping in particular is particularly difficult and intrusive. The acoustics are such that the noise is amplified and reverberates too. If it's a sudden noise it actually makes me jump! (i'm not generally a jumpy sort of person). It really does sound like elephants stomping around. Yes, it is normal kids behaviour, but the situation could be remedied with better sound proofing that would bring it back to more acceptable sound levels. Basement flats often have very low ceilings, and so it's not feasible to lower them further by putting in a false ceiling etc. and the owners of the flat above are unwilling to better sound proof their flat. It really impacts on my daily life, is very intrusive, wakes me up far earlier than I choose to wake and sometimes in the middle of the night too. I've lived in a number of different flats in my life, but this is by far the worse, and the only one to feel like a problem. If I was renting my flat I would definitely move! I'm not an old fogey and neighbours noise (particularly from above, because it often gets amplified) can be extremely testing to live with whatever age one is.
In this case, I would imagine that if there have been children living in the flat previously, the landlord will have received complaints from the flat below many times before! If he has, then he should really do something about improving the sound proofing. If he hasn't, then maybe you are exceptionally noisy as a family!

On a side note you need to check whether your local authority would actually accept your current address for school admissions. Some have rules that if you own another property that is the address they use. This is to stop the surprisingly common trick of people renting near a popular school then moving out again which I know isn't your aim but may still catch you. May just put a different light on whether you want to push through.

I think this is 6 od one nad half a dozen of the other.

If thye can hear you talking and moving around, wel lthat just sucks for them. You have to be able ot do normal thing.s

However, are you shouting a lot e.g. "DDDDDDIIIINNNNNNNNNNEEEEERRRRRR" rather than going and saying "dinner is ready now".

Is your child running around in the flat? This sticks out:

She is a normal lively 3 year old who jumps and skips and bounces and fidgets.

You do not 'skip and bounce' inside. I know it is hard in winter, but you go out and about to run around and burn off energy.

they say they can hear us moving around from early morning to the early hours and it is unbearable. They say my daughter is up late running the length of the flat squealing and my partner and I talk loudly and move around till the early hours.

Is this true? If it is then I'd have a bit of sympathy for them; but at the same time people have to recognise that there is going to be some noise associated with living in converted old houses.

I agree with a previous suggestion to give them the contact details for your council noise team and suggest they call them. If the noise is not really unreasonable, then I suspect calling their bluff like this might put an end to the complaints.

Don't bother with a counter complaint. Do bother with a nicely worded letter explaining all that you do to keep the noise down and invite them to suggest any further ideas they have that are reasonable

We used to live in a similar flat in West London and our neighbours had a young child.

They were super apologetic and we (the building) accepted that there was a young child in the building and that young children do make noise. There is no two ways about this. They cry, they squeal, they forget the "walking inside" rule. He was a bit younger than your daughter.

We knew the family were apologetic, we knew they had their shoes of inside, and they had had their flat carpeted, we knew there was a tired mama looking after an energetic little boy whilst her partner worked very long hours. They were open, apologised, explained all they were doing, and everyone just accepted that toddles do make noise!

I think your neighbours are being unreasonable. If you are making every effort possible to keep noise down to a minimum and they are still complaining they need to think about buying themselves a nice detached property in the country someplace.

Neighbours make noise. If you live in a flat, you live with other people's noise at times. That's just how it is with reasonable neighbours.

Gosh this is really difficult. It doesn't sound like yabu at all, especially given the adjustments you've made. But, I will say that when living with my parents for a while as a young adult, I was woken up every night, several times a night by my mum noisily crashing around her wooden floored bedroom above me. She maintained that she crept about, but the time rthat she did it, and for how long, was bonkers. And so bloody noisy, it actually really started affecting my mental health.

In your position I would do as a pp suggested, put in writing to them the adjustments you have made(but keep the playdates) and give the details of the councils noise team.