To ask for help with BIL and DN

[IfYoureFromAfrica]

Before I flip please

This will be long...

Me and DH at home with DD19 and DD9, BIL is visiting from Germany and has come to stay - bringing with him DN12. DN lives up north with her mum and BIL only sees her once a year - if that.

They have been here since Friday night, and will be leaving Wednesday morning - DN is supposedly 'ill' this week but hey ho she gets to see BIL and we are happy to see her - especially DD9 who up until this visit idolised DN.

Since DN has been here she has:

1. Left used sanitary products under my bed TWICE. The 1st time I had a chat with her but she has done it AGAIN!

1. Has been in DD19 room non stop (DD doesn't mind too much). However, DD had a friend round on Saturday before a night out and DN spent 30 minutes in their room complimenting both the girls outfits. On Sunday morning DD friend went home and couldn't find her dress from the night before, today I have since found this hidden with DN's stuff. Havent mentioned it yet.

1. Again on Sunday... DD19 has a cropped style jumper that DD9 is obsessed with and loves to wear when it allowed lol. I heard DD9 ask DD19 if she could borrow this which DD allowed. DD9 (fussy little madam) then decided she did not want to wear it and left it outside DD19's bedroom door. On Sunday DH and BIL took DD9 and DN out for lunch, queue a photo on FB showing DN in DD's jumper!!!! Obv DH and BIL pay no mind to clothing and had no clue it didnt belong to her. DD9 bless her is so polite she didnt dare say anything. Once they returned home DD12 said it was her jumper that her mum had brought her (DD brought this abroad so deffo not the same) - again didn't mention it as I didnt want to make a scene...

There is lots more incl DN telling everyone she loves how her mum is on benefits as she gets designer clothes all the time - Michael Kors bags, Chanel make up... shes 12 ffs

I am also missing a new pair of converse trainers (funnily enough I am the same size as DN) but I havent said anything yet.

I think my real issue here is BIL, he is lazy lazy lazy and I almost feel sorry for DN but I dont think I can make it 2 more days without snapping...

Please help me get through this!!! Lots of and for me i think!!!!

Yes, but to treat her like one of your own daughters, you need to treat as you would treat one of your own daughters if they behaved in the manner.

She needs boundaries. Firmness. To be talked to firmly about it. And then you can hug her when she apologizes. Show her you love her no matter what, yes, but not while ignoring what she's doing.

You'e not comparing like with like Ewe - she is NOT one of OP's daughters and we can't treat anyone like our own sons and daughters as that is a very special relationship - bonds that will never be broken. Thing is one of OP's daughters wouldn't behave in this way because they are not disturbed and this girl IS - she's hurting like mad underneath the bravado and she has little idea of why she's behaving like she is (it isn't conscious - it's just an unconscious response to her own deprived life)

I've worked with disturbed teenagers for 25 years and so can recognise one when I read something like this. You say she needs boundaries, firmness - "to be talked to firmly about it" NO sorry - she needs (as all children do) to be loved unconditionally by her parents (and she's clearly not) Setting of boundaries is fine in a parent/child relationship where the child is cared for but this child is NOT cared for. The OP has made it very clear that she isn't - and they haven't seen her for 3 years and expect her on the cusp of adolesence to behave like a 9 year old.

She needs to be listened to not "talked to firmly" - she'll just walk away in any event. You say "tell her you love her no matter what" but Aunt doesn't "love her no matter what" - yes she feels for her and has an idea that she is being neglected but I doubt that she's going to see her again, maybe not ever, so there's not much point in making those sorts of comments.

She may have a hard time and you obviously love her, but not saying something will not help her in the long run - she's getting older and it won't be long before she ends up in trouble with the police if she continues the way she is doing - you need to speak up and let her know what is and what is not acceptable. Even being treated like your own daughter, both of yours ask each other to borrow stuff and she just takes, even when it's a friend of you older DD - she needs stopping now

Agree with ewe she needs firm boundaries as well as love. Going in with too much attention now before she apologises would be rewarding bad behavior and will only encourage the stealing and attention seeking. People always think that its just about showing unhappy or messed up kids lots of love, but usually they need the firm boundaries too, to make them feel safe and encourage them to seek attention in a healthy way. Just ask any foster carer.

Signs of emotional, if not physical, neglect. I would encourage BIL to speak to school or social services. She might benefit from some targeted youth work support or mentoring.

I think you're right OP when you say she has fallen into a younger sister role. I have a few sisters and it was very common for them to 'borrow' each other's clothes, to forget to put them back, etc. None of them ventured on a life of crime or ended up in trouble with the police
You just need a chat with DN. I'm guessing the sanitary products issue is because she is used to changing and having a bin in her room, so she is putting the products down and then forgetting to move them. Could you give her a bin in the room? Even just a bag? She may be embarrassed about taking them from the room to the other bin and bumping into someone on the way.
You have to take back the items she has taken and tell her that she should ask if she wants to borrow something. You've only 2 days to go. It will be fine.

I agree with magic (was a foster carer). This is quite specific behaviour. I know it's really tough, and I may be barking up the wrong tree, but maybe she isn't getting any mothering and subconsciously wants you to talk to her about periods. She's quite young. Maybe ask her when you are one to one who answered all her questions about growing up and having periods. She may take the opportunity to ask you some stuff. My mum prepared me in her fashion- she showed me where the packet of pads was was in the airing cupboard. That was it.

Do the clothes she has brought with her look like designer clothes?

Can your DH build a relationship with her in the absence of BIL do you think?
Now you know this kind of behaviour is likely, it will be much easier to cope with a visit in future. You can supervise and know where belongings are and 'just check our stuff isn't getting muddled up' on a regular basis.

Search her throughly before she leaves

Yes Titania - boundaries are fine within the context of a loving stable relationship, but on Wed this girl is going back home to a mother who can't or won't care for her and a father who sees her once a year and aunt and uncle who are unlikely to see her again. So she's not going to be made to feel safe between now and Wednesday! It can take years for disturbed children to begin to trust adult - ask any foster carer!

I think you sound incredibly cold when you talk about this little girl. She sounds very sad and vulnerable, you affectionately call your DD a fussy little madam when she leaves her sisters jumper laying around outside her sisters bedroom upon deciding she doesn't want to wear it yet you're absolutely incensed that your DN wore it. How do you know that your DD didn't say "oh I don't want to wear it, you can" to your DN? And you say your DN's mother sits on the sofa all day, eats a take away every day yet you've never met her? I think you need to speak to your DH and be a hell of a lot lots kind and understanding of what sounds like a very troubled little girl.

Pickle glad someone agrees - I suppose if you've ever had any experience of the way in which neglect manifests itself the automatic thing is to just jump in with the kind of comments on here. I find some of them very unpleasant - and this is a child of 12 we're talking about!

I agree that it would be a good thing for aunt and uncle to take more interest in her now that there are obvious signs of this girl going off the rails, though that will probably happen in any event. I'm pessimistic I know but have seen so many cases like this and I'm sure you have too and the outcome is not good.

That's true, I can see it from your point of view, but leaving this behavior unaddressed is not going to do her any favours. She needs to know its wrong, I don't think she understands how it feels from the other girls point of view.

Mary - I salute you! The milk of human kindness does still run. Some of these posts have really upset me.

No Titania she doesn't because perceiving how others feel is something that most teenagers can't do - and many adults can't!! Her own needs are not being met and she has to cope the best way she can. Children in this position will behave in all sorts of anti social ways - it's an unconscious manifestation of not being cared for.......................

I found pickle's explanation for the sanpro very persuasive. And I agree this girl sounds disturbed. Doesn't mean OP shouldn't challenge her on the thefts.

But I was wondering how OP knows DN's mother spends all day doing nothing and eating takeaways when none of the three adults ever see this woman. If she's on benefits she's going to find daily takeaways just a bit out of her league!

Ditto designer clothes. That sounds like teenage sarcasm to me.

Aw thank you magic!

My eldest lovely DD is about to turn 13, I keep thinking about the OPs DN who hadn't seen the OP for 3 years and comes from (by the OP's own admission) a home where she isn't cared for or has her needs met. I think she needs clear boundaries explained with love, care and a stable environment. Not an aunt who she barley knows humiliating her and treating her without any kindness.

I do think that she needs to be talked to sympathetically in an " is everything ok at home" way, but it does need to be made clear that stealing is not acceptable. She may see it as borrowing in a little sister way, but it is stealing and that needs pointing out. I like the period talk angle suggested.

Magic I am sure what you are saying is right for a lot of cases, however just to add some perspective, I will admit (hidden behind my screen) that as a teen I was stealing a lot and misbehaving even though I had two loving parents, a home, no money worries (no worries at all in fact).

Why was I stealing? Just because I saw something I wanted, or was jealous... I stole from shops but also from my parents (money), sister (clothes), once even a dear friend. Maybe in my case the issue was that during childhood if I wanted something I would get it, so as a teen I didn't get that you don't always have what you want. I don't know.

The "gentle" approach wouldn't have worked at all. Being shamed did work.

I think you need to have a sit down and chat with her.

Gather all of the items she has stolen and you now have back (search her things before hand to make sure you have everything). Put them on the table and sit her down, explain you found them and ask her why she felt the need to take them all.

I do agree with Pickle that you might have to have the period talk with her and this could be the reason she's leaving them about.

I can't believe that pp suggested shaming a 12yo about sanitary products by calling her out in front of everyone I'm not saying that you should stand for the stealing, but a little bit of understanding wouldn't kill you

I can see why people are sorry for this poor girl, but I don't think that it does her any favours to play down the stealing. If OP is right and her mum is neglectful she's not going to be getting much guidance at home. She needs to know that stealing from people is a shit thing to do, and now is a good time. If she thinks she's getting away with it, she's going to keep going and will eventually lose any friends she has.

Also several PPs have mentioned that she will end up in trouble with the police. She may well already be in trouble, as DBIL doesn't seem to know much about his daughter's home life. If this is possible it's even more important to challenge her.

Make sure you help her with her packing!!

Mary I live an 8 hour drive away from DN, her mother does not allow her to visit any family unless her father is back from Germany - so the fact I haven't seen her is irrelevant. Youngest DD and DN email a few times a month, and DN is always sent xmas & bday presents. Always invited to family events and have offered to collect her but she is never allowed.

Also it doesn't matter if younger DD told DN she could wear the jumper - DN then LIED about it.

I have said to DN that we will need to have a chat later when younger DD is in bed and older DD will be at bfs. She nodded and is asked a bit sheepish with my this evening. I know she is a troubled girl, but she does need to know what she has done is wrong.

However from a girl who gets no attention from her mother and sees her dad once a year, I am not going to be too strict as I'm worried that when she is here this could be the only love / attention she is known.

But what do I know. She's a 12 year old girl, I only know about her mum from what other people I have said. Never let the woman.

Exactly. None of us know what the mother is really like. Her unhappiness might be because of the lack of parenting from her father.

Op sounds like you handling this well.

Op how do you know she gets no attention at home youve never met her mother! your very judgemental of someone who dont know and who raised an angel up until three years ago. Your lovely bil bothers to see his daughter once a year at best and you shove all the blame onto mum? takeaways every day on benefits lol thats a good one.

Whatever the issues are you havent a clue other than to blame her mum.