To think denying the class divide just helps it persist

[playmobilpeacock]

A new study has shown the pay gap between working class professionals and those from middle class backgrounds.

Social mobility: Class pay gap found in UK professions

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38744122

There are other studies that show children from working class backgrounds have to work harder at school and are less likely to get a place at a grammar school.

And it goes on

However, here on MN whenever a thread about class is started, scores of people will come along and say how class doesn't matter. But it obviously does.

AIBU to think that denying the issue is damaging for our society and doesn't actually make the problem go away?

I think the notion that anyone can succeed if they are talented / hardworking enough is very damaging. It allows people in privileged positions to justify their own privilege, by thinking that those opportunities are open to everyone, when in reality, they just aren't

@FruitCider "But you'll never have folk from more affluent backgrounds acknowledging their privilege, as they are blind to it". What a load of crap. There are plenty of people who are very aware of their privilege. Yes there are many that do want to believe they got there entirely on their own merit but by no means all.

I do meet some arrogant folk who think it's all their own work, and cannot understand the advantage they get just from having been able to buy property in London pre 1988, never mind any extra educational opportunities.

I think one of the most staggering examples of doublespeak on this in recent years was when Nick Clegg as DPM started to speak out about social mobility and ending unpaid internships. As he had benefitted from all these things he was criticised for raising the issue from left and right.

But you'll never have folk from more affluent backgrounds acknowledging their privilege, as they are blind to it".

This is true in many regards - however, my experience here on MN is that when I acknowledge my privilege I have been attacked for not divesting of privilege even though I try to work for (and believe in) equality of opportunity. (For example that we send our children to private schools)

Also, to my abject shame I was genuinely shocked when someone linked the Guardian class calculator and I found out that we are classed as "elite" - it just seemed laughable given that the majority of people around me have far more money/affluence than I do andi it can feel like I am treated like a charity case. It showed me how quickly one can become desensitised to their own privilege when surrounded by others equally or better off.

My life is a bit better balanced now! (that was a few years ago)

If everyone was given the same amount of money and private schools were abolished, would we see the end of the class system in a generation?
The problem is that you can't undo history - just look at the reverence the landed gentry are afforded (on the "posh" thread) it's ingrained in the collective psyche.

But there are countries where equality is far more universal than here and the standard of living is very high across the board. I've got a stonking migraine so not thinking too clearly but isn't Denmark one?

Britain is the country with the lowest social mobility in Europe.

Those who 'don't see class' clearly have a problematic relationship with facts. I agree entirely that royal family is part of this issue, since its existence flies in the face of egalitarianism and openly legitimises the very idea of unearned privilege.

I'd say there's a lot of levels of MC and for people at the lower end they are more likely to be downwardly mobile these days with university fees, house prices and how unstable a lot of professions have become (short-term contracts, worse pensions, less entry level jobs and so on).

What someone said about having the freedom to take risks chimes with me too. If you have rich parents to fall back on, you always have that safety net. You can do that internship, try that course, move to a new city etc etc. If you have no/limited safety net, your options are limited.

I definitely agree that a lot of people seem to be in denial and as a pp said, it is damaging to pretend we live in a meritocracy when we don't.

Its worth reading the article in the Guardian today on this.

The real issue isn't class - its wealth and poverty (particularly child poverty, which has ramped back up after falling 15 yrs ago).

The 'class' debate is just a media distraction from the horrific truth that this is one of the wealthiest countries in the world yet millions of children live in poverty.

A different article Millionprammiles?
Can you link it?

Class divides exist and people in general do adhere to them, look at the outcry about early years education, its often called free childcare and dismissed as unnecessary as so and so does not work any way. The fact that it Is necessary due to educational purposes passes people by. Not everyone knows to read to their toddler's, to draw with them, tobteach them colours/shapes/numbers or to wash their hands/wipe their bums/ blow their own noses.

This is not because of being poor, unemployed or ill educated many of these are great parents, but the majority of parents that need these hours come from that range of society so income is used for the means test.

Middle class parents tend to bring up children in a more active and social way to expect more and interact with a range of people and situations so the playing field for children is not level and perpetuates the system.

I was surprised to see the poverty here in England when we moved here. Growing up in Ireland, England (if not America) was where you went to get AWAY from poverty, but now I see that while of course there is deprivation in Ireland, the grinding, relentless poverty that so many people live in here in the UK is sobering indeed. It seems inescapable for so many people.

How to rectify it? In my short experience with the UK education system, the more teachers there are in a classroom, the better.

Education currently gets £85.2 billion a year.

There are currently 438,000 teachers on an average salary of £29k a year = £12.7 billion in salaries (where on earth does the rest go??).

The UK loses £16 billion a year to tax fraud.

So, I don't know. Invest £3 billion a year in tax investigation and use the £13b left over from what they claw back to pay another half a million teachers.

I can't think of any other "quick fix" than education and making sure that ALL children are equally equipped for attainment.

Criticising private schools is ridiculous. My 2 to go a private school and it's wonderful in every respect. You would be crazy not to want to go there if you had the money and lived nearby (as it happens we're moving city next year and going state, so I'm not obsessed with the idea of private).

However, it is unfair that ALL children shouldn't be getting that well-staffed, incredibly supportive, rigorous and loving attention at school, and the solution should not be banning/railing against private schools, but making sure that state schools have the funding required to match them, surely?

The money is ABSOLUTELY there, but nobody seems willing to go after it.

From the International Business Times:

"Most of the biggest companies in Britain paid no corporation tax in the country in 2014, despite global profits of more than £30bn ($42.73bn, €39.46bn), according to a report in the Sunday Times. The likes of Shell, British American Tobacco, Lloyds Banking Group, Vodafone, the brewer SABMiller and the drugs company AstraZeneca paid nothing in corporation tax.

BP and Glaxo Smith Kline, another drug company, refused to reveal how much they had paid, though GSK said it paid some.

HSBC and drinks company Diageo paid £238m between them, on combined profits of more than £14bn."

I think that the powers that be simply don't WANT to educate the working class. It's cheaper to leave them to fend for themselves, and cut their benefits and chip away at the NHS, and then demonise them in the Daily Mail.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/26/the-guardian-view-on-social-mobility-the-class-ceiling

*The real issue isn't class - its wealth and poverty (particularly child poverty, which has ramped back up after falling 15 yrs ago).

The 'class' debate is just a media distraction from the horrific truth that this is one of the wealthiest countries in the world yet millions of children live in poverty.*

I agree with this.

I see income and class a bit like sex and gender. One is made up stereotypes which can't fully be defined (gender and class) and one is based on facts (income now, or while growing up, and biological sex).

It's not gender or class that makes a difference to people's lives but income or biological sex.

icanteven the parents need to be interested though I can remember a former ndn kicking off about her poor children missing attendance award treats, this same neighbour was often leaving the end of the road with her dcs when the rest of us were coming back from the school run (a 20 min walk each way). She really couldn't see the correlation between getting them to school on time and attainment and she was not the only one in that school hence the attendance 'treats' such as discos, films once every half term.

There are currently 438,000 teachers on an average salary of £29k a year = £12.7 billion in salaries (where on earth does the rest go??).

I wonder if education has been hit with PFIs like the NHS?

www.facebook.com/EvolvePolitics/videos/1790808341171105/

Failure to connect habitual lateness with missing attendance award treats says more about her intelligence than her class.

Or lack of interest, they don't learn in assembly was often her excuse, and i really think she believed it....

Failure to connect habitual lateness with missing attendance award treats says more about her intelligence than her class.

This wasn't what she overlooked.

The OP said: She really couldn't see the correlation between getting them to school on time and attainment

I would assume that this has far more to do with having had an educationally disenfranchised upbringing herself. Perhaps her parents didn't understand the value of education or they were chaotic and unable to support her school attendance so she wasn't ever able to see or experience the value of education herself.

@SickNotes I'm Norwegian and as far as I know there is no aristocracy. I had a quick google and found it mentioned to be a thing around year 1500.

The "crown prince" (next king) married woman who was a single mother, with a pretty normal life before meeting him, from what I know.

There is no or very little class system, maybe some in Oslo, but around the rest of Norway it's not something you ever think about. Not at all like it is here in England.

married a* woman!

I'm Norwegian and as far as I know there is no aristocracy. I had a quick google and found it mentioned to be a thing around year 1500.

How very appealing.

Icanteven Don't forget about all us rugby mad working class people in Limerick. It's certainly not confined to private schools

Class does confuse me a bit, and I think it's a bit out of date. I've known people who clearly think they are posher than me, but they actually have very little money at all. They want the world to think they are privileged, but they are massively in debt. And I've also known people happy to live in a fairly small house but have lots of money.

Also, what exactly is working class? I would have thought that as this seems to be the lowest level dictated, most people in it are working, but they are not. Should there be another level I wonder either called lower class or poverty stricken?
Personally I think these days people should either not be labelled as being at any class as if people want to and are able, they can become successful as they want to be.

"I think that the powers that be simply don't WANT to educate the working class. It's cheaper to leave them to fend for themselves, and cut their benefits and chip away at the NHS, and then demonise them in the Daily Mail."

Precisely this.

In theory hard work and application should make class irrelevant but a mc child is likely to be pushed to attain more and also to expect more from an early age. Traditional wc tend to place value on education for their children and will also provide a nurturing environment and all the extras but we have an underclass in this country who seem to have bought into the its my right/its not fair culture who tend not to raise children in the same way.
A plumber or carpenter are traditionally working class, but they are not likely to be found on a sink estate sending their dcs to the convenient but failing school up the road, so valuewise they are mc now.