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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think denying the class divide just helps it persist

74 replies

playmobilpeacock · 26/01/2017 07:55

A new study has shown the pay gap between working class professionals and those from middle class backgrounds.

Social mobility: Class pay gap found in UK professions

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38744122

There are other studies that show children from working class backgrounds have to work harder at school and are less likely to get a place at a grammar school.

And it goes on

However, here on MN whenever a thread about class is started, scores of people will come along and say how class doesn't matter. But it obviously does.

AIBU to think that denying the issue is damaging for our society and doesn't actually make the problem go away?

OP posts:
FruitCider · 26/01/2017 10:28

You change the way you speak?  Just weird

Not really. I don't think toning down my accent and pronouncing words properly in front of employers is a bad thing. Being able to adapt myself for the situation is probably why I'm on better pay than my friends. I can talk the lingo.

SickNotes · 26/01/2017 10:29

I'm laughing at your list, ican't - though I think the inhabitants of Clare bogs would be horrified at the words you are imputing to them Grin -- but are you equating 'Irish' and 'not posh'?

Agreed that most people in England do equate Irish and 'not posh' (and frequently can't appear to hear the difference between, say, the Rubber Bandits and the classic Dublin 4 accent), but is that how you think of it?

FruitCider · 26/01/2017 10:30

Perhaps that's one of those things only known to the 'priviledged'.

Or those that spend time with people that are privileged!

MrsJayy · 26/01/2017 10:33

The Grammar School system only exists in England nowhere else in the uk have Grammar schools maybe it is time to get rid of them and all English Children have an equal footing ?

Manumission · 26/01/2017 10:35

Have NI ditched their grammars?

MrsJayy · 26/01/2017 10:36

Ooops NI have Grammar schools

Littleballerina · 26/01/2017 10:38

I think that people are confused about class and so deny that it matters.

Manumission · 26/01/2017 10:38

However, here on MN whenever a thread about class is started, scores of people will come along and say how class doesn't matter. But it obviously does.

If you mean that thread, the answers are proving quite how much the heirarchy and petty distinctions DO matter to many people, I think. Bits of that thread have been laugh out loud hilarious.

GetAHaircutCarl · 26/01/2017 10:38

It's less to do with class than money.

Lots of working class people are extremely aspirational for themselves and their DC but without hard cash it's very very difficult to socially mobilise.

Similarly, the middle classes without money are not really in any better position and are finding themselves downwardly mobile. Their DC will certainly not be afforded the privileges of previous generations.

Meanwhile the wealthy from all different backgrounds can access better resources for their families if they choose.

Manumission · 26/01/2017 10:39

Don't go MrsJ Smile

I get the impression that the NI grammars will be the last to go.

icanteven · 26/01/2017 10:40

My father has always had something of a chip on his shoulder about his own background, as his grandparents' generation was quite well off (pharmacists, lawyers etc), but his parents were poor and bitter. His childhood was marked by poverty and hunger.

My grandmother was very much of the sneering "who do you think you are? do you think you're BETTER than us?" mentality about virtually anything that didn't involve being poor and living in a very poor part of Dublin. My dad bought her a new winter coat once, but she wore the same disgusting dirty old coat to the supermarket every day because she LIKED that people would say "Oh, poor auld Mrs icanteven, sure wouldn't you think that one of her sons would buy her a coat?"

My father was the only one in his family to go to university, and become "middle class". Growing up, we had a country cottage, two cars, riding and violin lessons etc. and although there was NEVER any extra money for fripperies, we never wen't without. My parents were naturally parsimonious, which helped! So my Dad is "working class made good" and he devoted himself to making sure sure that I started life with the privilege and emotional support and love that he didn't have.

But he still thinks of people from the posher parts of Dublin as being "other". As being stuck-up, not like him. Yet oddly, he tolerates and is blind to anti-Irish sentiment here in the UK, where he now lives. It's all very strange.

HOWEVER (maybe outing myself here), he (reluctantly) joined a private members club in Ireland, anxious that it would be terribly posh, and quite ready to hate it and never go, and imagine his surprise when he discovered that all the "posh" old men came from backgrounds JUST like his.

I think in that way, Ireland has the true social mobility that England lacks. You can be born into grinding poverty, but if you make good, nobody judges you for where you came from, only how you behave now.

icanteven · 26/01/2017 10:51

The inhabitants of Clare bogs would be horrified at the words you are imputing to them grin -- but are you equating 'Irish' and 'not posh'?

I'm sure they would! I've certainly never heard the word macuschla spoken in real life! :)

I definitely don't equate Irish with not posh at all - my own "natural" accent is more D4, i.e. "posh Irish", which I think to some people in this country is a bit of a contradiction in terms! I suppose when I said "posh" in my post, I should have said "posh English", for the purposes of this thread - I certainly didn't mean to suggest that Irish = not posh, as I know that I am reasonably privileged, both from a Dublin and from an English perspective.

Are you on OMGWACA, by any chance? I'm definitely more NFATR than Ais, I'm afraid. :)

Purplebluebird · 26/01/2017 10:56

I hate the class system. I don't even know where me and my little family belong. We're broke at the moment, my other half works in a dead end job (that he enjoys mind), and I can't work because of health reasons. We both have bachelor degrees and are fairly intelligent. Both our dads are engineers, and mums have had jobs of their own too (PA and chef). How we ended up like we are, I've no idea. :( But I don't consider myself working class, nor do I consider myself middle class. Mind, I'm Scandinavian and we don't particularly have a class system there (it's "normal people" and "super rich" people, who are very rare!)
I guess that contributes to my confusion. My other half's parents are definitely middle class though.

SickNotes · 26/01/2017 11:01

Are you on OMGWACA, by any chance? I'm definitely more NFATR than Ais, I'm afraid

I do not understand this sentence, and Googling hasn't helped! What is this phenomenon? Have I finally lost touch with Ireland and missed something crucial?

Do you think that your natural accent -- which would definitely be 'posh' by Irish standards - is viewed as working-class by middle/upper-middle class English people, because Irish = 'not posh' by definition? (I am a total prole (well, a culchie, to be precise Grin), but went to Oxford, which also confuses the hell out of people. I dial the accent up or down as appropriate.

HoldMeCloserTonyDanza · 26/01/2017 11:09

www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/the-adventures-of-a-complete-aisling-in-the-big-smoke-1.2712660

Oh my God this is amazing.

I know a LOT of Aislings and Niamhs.

Possibly everyone I know is either an Aisling or a Niamh Grin

toomuchtooold · 26/01/2017 11:16

29 agree it's difficult to define class disadvantage for one individual against another but on a population scale it's possible to pull out trends like they did in this study that's being quoted. (And sorry, I wasn't getting at you on the "big house and keeps horses" definition - I totally agree that it would make no sense for people like me to claim to still be working class.)

even when professionals had the same educational attainment, role and experience, those from poorer families were paid an average of £2,242 less, the Social Mobility Commission's study found

I imagine you'd get similar effects looking at parents' maximum education level, and attendance at public/grammar/comprehensive school. I remember being Shock when Justine Greening became the Education secretary and they said she was the first one who'd been educated in a comprehensive. OK so comprehensives started in 65, so the kids coming through them wouldn't have been old enough to be Education secretary till the 90s - but that's still nearly 30 bloody years! And for education! You would think they would have tried, by now, to have at least one product of their own state education system run the bloody department...

icanteven
And, oddly, when I'm reading stories to the children at night.

My accent's softened up in most situations now (I left Scotland 15 years ago) but I talk deepest Glaswegian dialect to babies. Even babies that are not actually Glaswegian. I don't know why. Maybe I'm trying to recruit them or something.

icanteven · 26/01/2017 11:25

Sicknotes

Do you think that your natural accent -- which would definitely be 'posh' by Irish standards - is viewed as working-class by middle/upper-middle class English people, because Irish = 'not posh' by definition?

I don't know, to be honest! It probably depends on the listener, to an extent. Somebody who is naturally disposed to dislike the Irish, will believe, or affect to believe that all Irish accents are working class: "No dogs, blacks or Irish", but where I live in England ("naice" town), I haven't encountered that much.

I won't say that I haven't encountered it at all, mind. I've had the "You know, you're so [hardworking/educated/successful/sober/articulate] for an Irish person!", but only from people who come from working class backgrounds themselves, and are perhaps not 100% comfortable with their educated middle-class status as adults yet? I don't know - I think any kind of racism is usually tied up pretty closely with a person's own self-perception, and how secure they feel in their bit of society. It's far more about them than me!

I have many thoughts about this, but also two clients to write material for this morning, so I probably shouldn't get into an essay on the matter here!

playmobilpeacock · 26/01/2017 11:26

I don't know if it is just about money.

I can imagine a scenario where a working class family win the lottery and can afford the best of everything but they would not automatically move up the social ranks.

I come from a UMC family who were grindingly poor. However, I was able to go to a grammar school and my accent has given me confidence when I moved south and has definitely made it easier to find work.

I've also been in situations with people who might consider me 'up myself' who are far better off than I was growing up.

I was taught how to negotiate the UMC and it's rarely mattered that I grew up in poverty.

Are there any true meritocracies?

OP posts:
icanteven · 26/01/2017 11:27

SickNotes

OMGWACA

Enjoy!

LostSight · 26/01/2017 11:41

Norway has a royal family, SickNotes and it's much more egalitarian than the UK. I don't know where the deference comes from, but I don't think it has much to do with the existence of the royals, per se.

I wonder whether it has more to do with the presence of very expensive private schools, which seem to turn out people who believe they are genuinely superior and then effectively provide them with networks that mean that success comes more easily and failure to prosper financially is far less likely.

SickNotes · 26/01/2017 11:42

Thanks, TonyDanza and ican't. I haven't heard the phrase 'good road frontage' in far too long. Even a cursory glance is giving me flashbacks (though I have never spent longer than about 48 hours at a time in Dublin, probably because I thought it had notions, and went straight out of the country. I still think of Dublin as a bit notion-y.)

I have a novel to finish, which is why I'm clearly on here. So could everyone stop being interesting, please? Alternatively, I could just disconnect the router...

icanteven · 26/01/2017 11:42

Are there any true meritocracies?

I can't speak for other countries in Europe, but I think Ireland is damn close. You do not have to be wealthy or have gone to a private school to run the country, unlike England. The "upper echelons" of Irish society, such as they are, are accessible to all.

I think our politics and leadership is a good snapshot, because it's an area that is dominated by the upper/upper middle class here: compare recent Prime Ministers in the UK to our Taoiseach/Prime Minister - from the middle of nowhere in the West of Ireland, state educated in a primary school with literally about 30 kids, went on to teacher training college in order to become a primary school teacher. His father was in politics so he was exposed at an early age - and that's the only "edge" you really need in Irish politics - you need to start YOUNG.

Our President comes from a poor background, featuring poverty and alcoholism (his father), went to a rural state school, before going to university as a mature student and getting into debating and student's union politics, then academia and later politics.

Obviously there are upmarket parts of our country and cities, and there are well known private schools - Loreto, Clongowes, Blackrock College - with lots of rugby (I think Clongowes has 5 rugby pitches?), and high-achieving parents etc. but I don't think the gap in opportunity and support is as yawning as it is here.

If you go into our "poshest" private members' clubs (as I mentioned above), the "venerable gentlemen" there come from equally unpretentious backgrounds. Coming from poverty might make it a bit harder, practically speaking, on the way up, but it's no barrier to social, political or professional success later on.

SickNotes · 26/01/2017 11:44

Norway has a royal family, SickNotes and it's much more egalitarian than the UK

Fair point. Is there an aristocracy in Norway? Or any of the other places with sort of bicycle monarchies? When did those monarchies get 'downgraded' from full pomp and circumstance?

icanteven · 26/01/2017 11:46

(The reason our clubs are all men is because it's too mind-numbingly dull for any self-respecting woman to go next or near, but having had cause to work with their management, I know that they desperately want women to join, and indeed, anybody under the age of 70 would be very welcome!)

playmobilpeacock · 26/01/2017 12:16

That's very interesting icanteven

Does the role of the church change things?

I'm mulling over the money thing.

If everyone was given the same amount of money and private schools were abolished, would we see the end of the class system in a generation? Two?

OP posts: