Am I being a nasty mam?

[Dementedswan]

I got called in to speak to ds age 6 teacher tonight. He's been silly and disruptive the last couple of days. Refusing to do set work and being rude. Teacher asked me to have words with him over his behaviour. The three of us discussed it and Ds agreed he would have a fresh start on Monday. I told him I would think about a punishment on the way home.

We leave the class and Ds immediately starts calling me names, running off etc. This behaviour continues at home even after removal of favourite toys.

He's been sent to his bedroom to write letters of apology to both his teacher and me in the hope this makes him think about his behaviour -and give me room to breathe-

Apparently I'm nasty and mean. Am I being too harsh?

Divas and Dictators is really good IMO. The guy who wrote it ran a PRU and he knew his stuff about behaviour

A friend had a boy who had truly mastered the art of the meaningless apology. He could put a performance on that if you hadn't seen it before would convince you that he was full of remorse and had truly learned his lesson. Until 5 minutes later when he was doing the same thing again.
He had learnt that the better performed the apology, the more he could get away with.

You need to teach children how other people feel and how their behaviour affects others. That is how they learn to understand what apologies are for.
I would much rather have a child wait for an hour to calm down, realise what they had done, then come and apologise because they wanted to, than I ever would want to receive an apology that a child was told to give. I have no interest in that at all.

I believe that not forcing my kids to apologise has really helped them become considerate young men. They have never been rude to me, never sworn at me, are thoughtful and polite.

There is a place for punishment, but it should be a tiny proportion of how you discipline your kids.

If a 6 year old is deliberately and repeatedly rude, and knows exactly how to behave appropriately, that is a choice.
That implies that 6 year olds are in complete control over all of their behaviour and that simply isn't the case. They don't have the emotional maturity to manage themselves all the time. They will mess up and get it wrong. You don't have to punish a child to teach them that they've done something wrong. When they get their Maths wrong, you teach them the right way. If they keep getting it wrong, you find a different way to show them. It's learning. You have to teach your children.

There is this misconception that not punishing children means that you let them get away with anything, nothing could be further from the truth. I taught my children how to behave.

mywinetime I agree with your post 100%

I completely agree with mywine too.

I don't believe that punishments and forced apologies are the best way to teach children too be considerate, conscientious, self-motivated people.

As mywine said:

"There is this misconception that not punishing children means that you let them get away with anything, nothing could be further from the truth. I taught my children how to behave."

Good luck with that OP.

I don't punish.

DS1 has ASD and we've always set out our stall very plainly for him. I've learned to be explicit in my expectations of him, to explain when we're off out where we're going and how I expect him to behave. As a by-product of this (which works well for DS1) DS2 who is 6 also generally behaves very well because he's always known what I expect.

They can be silly and wild and daft, but I can't remember a time either of them has been rude to an adult. They make mistakes, we talk them through and they learn how to make better choices.

I'm a teacher and have learned that if I get cross and lose my temper I've lost control of the situation. Better to stay calm, talk it through and work out a remedy. Both DCs empathise, are kind and can make a meaningful apology. This parenting wouldn't work for others perhaps but it works for us.

This behaviour continues at home even after removal of favourite toys.

So punishment isn't working.

I agree with all the posters saying punishments aren't always the answer.
I have hardly ever punished my dcs and I'm no walkover or hippy.
I've always tried to find out what's going on, explain to them why their behaviour is not acceptable, asked them how they would feel if someone did that to them.

I'm not trying to paint an idealised picture. We argue, I'm a bit too shouty at times but my kids know I'm on their side.

Sorry to add to my post - with punishments you are creating conflict.
He's 6 years old. What's really going on for him?

MyWineTime is spot on. You need only look at how many prisoners reoffend to know that punishment doesn't work.

My sister learned the art of apology and used it to do whatever she wanted to with impunity as a child. She still does it in her 30s. She has very little empathy. I wouldn't want that for my children. They really mean it when they say sorry, and know that it means "I won't do it again" (whatever it was).

Remember how parental disappointment was worse than anger as a child? Think about it.

I think it's very difficult to teach empathy - and that us the key. I agree that a lot of punishments that are considered "effective" don't actually work for all children.
Sitting on the naughty step, apologies, only really matter if you care about your parents disapproval.
If you don't really care what others think of you then those punishments don't really work very well.

I have one child that is not very well behaved. She doesn't seek my approval. My mother tells me I was just like her. I remember being deliberately naughty, there was no reason.

I think it's very difficult to teach empathy
You teach empathy by showing empathy. You teach what emotions are and how they affect us. I recognise how THEY feel. You teach healthy ways of expressing those emotions, so when you are cross because someone took something from you, you don't hit them or shout at them.

When adults shout and punish kids because we are cross, we are teaching our children that when you feel cross, you shout and are horrible to the person who made you cross.

I remember being deliberately naughty, there was no reason.
You clearly got or were seeking something from. There is ALWAYS a reason.
Maybe it got your mother's attention. Maybe it was hard to get her approval or you didn't think you deserved it or were likely to get it. Maybe it was easier to get her attention this way than it was to do whatever she would have praised you for.
Maybe it gave you a sense of control. Maybe you didn't feel like you had much in the way of choices or freedom and this is how you exercised some control over your life.
Maybe you were seeking boundaries and rules. Maybe she was so hands off that you were allowed to do anything so you were looking to her for boundaries - kids need rules to feel secure.

As a teacher, can I just say THANK YOU for getting him to write a note of apology to his teacher. So many parents I deal with think I'm in the wrong/being unreasonable! Thank you!

Even if he doesn't mean a word of it and has only written it to get out of a punishment Emma?

Exactly mywine.

He may have written the letter seething with resentment and anger, head fill of hateful thoughts.

The apology may not be worth the paper it's written on.

You can't make someone feel regret or apologetic. It doesn't work like that.

Well it seems like his mother has also 'punished' him in more child suitable ways (no screen time, missing out on family movie). That seems like punishment enough. I simply meant, it's nice to see some parents teaching their children respect, especially when it comes to teachers. I've taught many children who have been extremely rude and insulting and their parents simply laugh it off. What message does that send to the child? Getting them to write a note of apology may not mean anything to them, but it shows the teacher that the parent is willing to work with you and not against you.

It doesn't matter if he doesn't mean a word of it. What matters is he's learned that if he repeats the performance he'll be stuck writing letters of apology which I'm sure will make him think twice. Most kids won't understand that they should treat people the way they wish to be treated until much older than 6.

We have so many kids who never have to account for their behaviour and so they never learn.

mywinetime no I'm afraid none of those rang true. I was just awkward, and still am if I want to be. You can demonstrate empathy -I can do it very well, but that doesn't make you feel it.

He didn't write his apology seething with anger

Writing the letter made him reflect on his behaviour and gave him space to calm down.

We had a lovely day out yesterday and had fun night last night instead. He wrote me a lovely note about how much he enjoyed the day at bedtime last night.

No children were harmed and no there's nothing wrong with him. He simply had a bad day. We all have them but at 6 he needs to learn how to express that without upsetting others around them.

Dementedswan I'm glad this thread worked out well for your DS.

I've got so much to say, and I'm not going to remember all of it....

"apology by rote" has it's place. I learned my timestables by constantly repeating once two is two, two twos are four, three twos are six (etc). An apology by rote has a value. (particularly in terms of how it affects others). However - as has been said - an apology from the heart means so, so much more, and means a lesson has been learnt. So although it's not easy to teach empathy, it's not impossible (modelling, as a PP said, and also discussing feelings with your child). A mum friend of mine never makes one of her 3 DCs apologise to another one, but she always says to them DCx, how do you think DCy feels? They always say sorry!

I agree that there's always something 'going on' for the child, but is often unfathomable to us as adults.

But say I said to you (YOU, the poster reading this post) "Stop doing that" and then I said

"you're still doing it, I'm getting angry now"

and then I said

You're still doing it. I've said I'm angry stop now.

And then

Ok, you're still doing it. NOW I'm going to punish you.

It's ok... I'm not going to reach out through the screen and smack your behind, and I'm not going to take away your device. But wouldn't you feel it was unfair if I did? I haven't ACTUALLY told you what you're doing wrong, how to make it right or what to stop. And then I'm considering punishing you for some kind of guessing game which you have no hope of winning? How is that fair.

If I started a thread that said "my DC have just drawn on all the walls in indelible ink. What should I do?" would I get post after post of calling for punishments? From taking away all pens (to stop them from doing it again, which would actually be reasonable under the info I've given) to more harsh sanctions.
What if I then drip-fed later than my DC were unsupervised by me (because I was on MN, obvs) and had been for hours.
Should those DC still be punished? Or would MN tell me to stop AIBU-ing and - actually - spend some time with my kids. Because if I'd been giving them some attention in the first place, they wouldn't have drawn on the bloody walls.

This is what I meant by my previous post (on about pg 2)

Equally, if you've got a happy, jolly teeny tiny one, and suddenly they're not happy and jolly, they're crying and whinging and unsettled, do you "punish" them if you're also aware they have nappy rash/are teething/were kept awake by noisy neighbours? Of course not. It's not their fault.

So to answer Grilledaubergines who in response to my post said:

I would say STOP focussing on "punishment".
I would say "punishment" doesn't work.
And it's horrible for everyone.

Right, and at what age would this policy be adjusted? Or are you saying that bad actions and poor behaviour should have no consequences?

No, I'm not saying actions shouldn't have consequences (and part of teaching empathy is showing that they do... i.e. "when you do x, it makes mummy sad, because....") and there is no minimum age. Consequences start from birth (baby smiles, you smile back. Baby cries, you comfort. Actions = consequences. All part of the learning!). But the significant thing for me is understanding where the behaviours come from and working to put them right before they become a problem.

Example: Teenager comes home from school in a vile mood. Slams doors. Breaks basic rules. Do I punish teenager for that? Could do. Could also have a chat with teenager, find out if they've had a crap day. Be nice. Help teenager feel better. We all move on.

I emphatically disagree with a race to punish. As a PP said, look at how many people in prisons are re-offenders. SO much better to solve the problem before it even starts. Then there IS no problem. And things like manners and listening to other people's point of view are part of that process.

And spending time and emotional energy on your children.

I sound very preachy, don't I. Awarding myself a for smugness, even though I have a DD who doesn't think I'm all that!

missgranny- I agree.

I have never punished. Punishment doesnt figure in my daily dealings with other adults and children are no different.

My oldest is 19. The teenage years have been easy.
And before anyone suggests that I have rampaging entitled brats- I don't.

My kids have never been punished at school.. Their good behaviour is always something that teachers have been quick to mention. When my youngest left primary school the headteacher shook my hand and thanked me for raising kids with exemplary behaviour and respectful attitude to others.

This is without naughty steps, no time out, no withdrawal of privileges, no forced apologies, no grounding, no punishment.