Am I being a nasty mam?

[Dementedswan]

I got called in to speak to ds age 6 teacher tonight. He's been silly and disruptive the last couple of days. Refusing to do set work and being rude. Teacher asked me to have words with him over his behaviour. The three of us discussed it and Ds agreed he would have a fresh start on Monday. I told him I would think about a punishment on the way home.

We leave the class and Ds immediately starts calling me names, running off etc. This behaviour continues at home even after removal of favourite toys.

He's been sent to his bedroom to write letters of apology to both his teacher and me in the hope this makes him think about his behaviour -and give me room to breathe-

Apparently I'm nasty and mean. Am I being too harsh?

I completely disagree with most of the PPs. Some have come along towards the end of this thread who I agree with more.

There are some people on this site (many of whom don't seem to be parents) who are ALL in favour of punishments, punishments, punishments. the most memorable to me (and not on this thread) was someone who posted something like "my smacking arm is tingling". I'm not suggesting those people are on this thread, but it's a noticeable trend.

I would say STOP focussing on "punishment".

I would say "punishment" doesn't work.
And it's horrible for everyone.

Instead, look at the behaviours and look at how you can influence changing them. Look at trying to spot problems and get in there early to change the outcome. Look at how you react and how you can change what you do/say/react to in order for your child to behave differently.

If you can change the behaviour, you get rid of the need to punish. Because you've solved the problem before it's become a problem.

Don't forget, he's only 6! He's learning. Help teach him!

So, to address those posters who disagree with punishment for bad behaviour, if you don't punish him, how do you deter him?

Agree that now he has been punished you need to spend some calm time with him 1-1 to allow him to open up to you. He's only little and he isn't acting that way suddenly for no reason. Something is troubling him.

I would say STOP focussing on "punishment".
I would say "punishment" doesn't work.
And it's horrible for everyone.

Right, and at what age would this policy be adjusted? Or are you saying that bad actions and poor behaviour should have no consequences?

Trifle, behaving well and dealing with difficult situations is something children need to learn. When your child is learning to read or do their times tables, do you feel the need to deter them from getting it wrong? Even when you think that they really must know that word and they've managed to read it before, would it ever occur to you to punish them for getting it wrong?

If you punish a child who is being rude, that doesn't teach them any level of understanding about rudeness (even if you give them a mini lecture in the process). It doesn't teach them what not being rude is. It doesn't teach them how it feels when someone is rude to you. It doesn't show any understanding or care about what happened that cause the child to be rude in the first place (there is ALWAYS a reason).

All it teaches them is that you are more powerful than them and when they don't do what you want them to do, you will do nasty things to them.

Children can be rude for various reasons. If he wasn't doing his work - could he do it? was there something he wasn't sure about? was another child doing something to annoy him? was he still upset about something that happened earlier? etc Show some empathy, some concern. GENTLY ask questions about what was happening at the time or over the course of the day (never 'why did you do that'). Try to work out what lead to the child behaving that way.

No it's not ok to be rude or refuse to do work, but it's because he doesn't have the ability to express what was going on for him. Being rude is a great defense system for a child who feels stupid.

Then mum doesn't listen or care what was going on for him so he tries to make her listen in the only way his 6yr old mind knows - he's rude to her too. They are both then forced into this position of punishment and it will achieve absolutely nothing.

He may well comply and write the letter, he may well cry and promise that he will never be rude again and he is really sorry, but he's doing all of that to get out of the punishment. He hasn't gained any understanding about refusing to do work or being rude and he hasn't learnt skills to cope and respond any better when the same situation happens again.

Talk to him, LISTEN to him, then discuss what happened. Show that you care about his feelings (without saying 'but'). Then discuss how the other people in that situation felt. Children are selfish creatures, then need their feelings to be addressed before there is any chance of them understanding someone else's. That's when you might get a genuine apology from him, and that's when you can talk about how else he could deal with that kind of situation again.

When your child is learning to read or do their times tables, do you feel the need to deter them from getting it wrong? Even when you think that they really must know that word and they've managed to read it before, would it ever occur to you to punish them for getting it wrong?

Of course not, because that isn't a choice. If a 6 year old is deliberately and repeatedly rude, and knows exactly how to behave appropriately, that is a choice. As a parent it is your job to teach them that this behaviour, which might seem more satisfying to them in the short term, isn't going to reward them.

And in the nicest possible way, just to add to my post above, what a load of hippy crap

Quite sad to see all the congratulating re the punishing- it's a quick fix that will make things worse in the long run. Dd started to go down the route of being disruptive in year 6 . Punishments and forced apologies don't work and thank goodness I figured that out really quickly or things would have detoriorated. when kids behave like this there is ALWAYS an underlying cause that needs to be sorted - I say this as a teacher who has taught y5/6 as well as a mother . He will need guidance and understanding . When I figured out all the (deep rooted) complexities that were bothering my dd things have become a lot better and all behaviour issues are resolved . I would focus on:
Communicating
Understanding
Confidence / self esteem
Anxieties
Friendship groups
Morals ( doing what is right for th sake of it and not for fear of punishment )
Empathy
Consequences are very important but for me consequences of bad behaviour should not be : I won't get any more sweets. That is not a consequence in the real world . Children should learn about consequences in terms of the direct impact of their behaviour - upsetting people , disruption etc . When they are able to empathise empathise empathise they are less likely to play up .

sherazade: Has your daughter's behaviour resolved itself?

People can call it hippy crap but my dd is way better behaved and a much happier child now that I've ignored the pressure from others to punish her and have gone down the 'hippy crap' route .

In addition to her behaviour being a lot better , she ALWAYS take the initiative to apologise genuinely to me now if she has overstepped the mark without anyone having to ask or tell her. It would have been far easier for me to just take stuff off her and keep her in her room writing letters but that just builds up anger, resentment and then it becomes meangless over time and they become manipulative. It was a long journey that took a lot of patience on my on my part and I had to get everyone on board including family members who were very traditional about discipline but they are all convinced now that this has worked best for dd.

I have just bought a book, divas and dictators only just started it but it's looking helpful, might be worth a read. Also haven't read whole thread but just be mindful that when doling out punishments ( which I agree with) you don't take away too much, give him something still to lose!
We ended up with one of ours practically in a bedroom like a cell, he had literally nothing left, we then had nowhere to go and had to draw a kind of line in the sand/ ceasefire and go for ' a fresh new start ' . ! So he got it all back which kind of defeated the purpose!

Consequences have to be natural and logical in order for a six year old to be genuinely able to learn from them. Just think about how confusing it would be in adulthood if you didn't pay your electricity bill and as a consequence you weren't allowed have an ice-cream or visit your friend's house! It would be bonkers and you'd likely make all sorts of errors, first in confusion and eventually because you were just fed up with all the nonsense and just act out in order to have some sort of control. That's what it's like for a child who faces illogical punishment.

Tbh, if my DS started acting out of character all of a sudden I'd be extremely concerned about why, rather than determined to stomp the behaviour out. I'd be taking time to play with him, to let him know I'm listening, and when he talks to me about what's wrong I'd listen. He says he's being bullied in school so I'd be taking that very, very, very seriously and not punishing him for how the bullying is effecting him. Just because his teacher hasn't witnessed it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

sherazade: I am pleased for you. However, I would question the wisdom of teaching your child (even indirectly) that she should never be punished and that others should always respond to her poor behaviour with unlimited empathy with her, not with those disadvantaged . I think that would have led me to expect to be able to get away with that poor behaviour, which is unrealistic in adult life.

it would have been far easier for me to just take stuff off her and keep her in her room writing letters but that just builds up anger, resentment and then it becomes meangless over time and they become manipulative.

Being grounded or having no pocket money always worked on me. I didn't become manipulative or confused. I understood the concept perfectly well and the prospect of being denied things I wanted deterred most bad behaviour very well.

People not punishing their kids for rudeness is the reason why so many teens are unmanageable. Punishment is part of being a good parent. The other half is finding out the cause of the behaviour.

The thing s that - punishments aside - there is something behind a 6 year old being that naughty and rude.

I'm currently on (nearly) 6 yo number 3, and we have their friends through the house a lot and have for years, and that is more extreme and deliberate than normal 6 yo behaviour.

Op has punished for better or worse - that's done.

Now you really do need to work out what's going on in his head. It could be something silly to an adult view point (the puppy? A misunderstanding of an overheard adult conversation that has planted an unfounded conviction that you are going to divorce/ die/ move and this is somehow his fault,/ you haven't told him) or something properly serious like actually struggling with the work this year (has something changed about how they work or how instructions are given?) and trying to mask and not let the teacher find out because being seen as smart but naughty is "better" than admitting he can't do it, systematic bullying or worse... )

I'd be talking to him when he is calm, and having a secheduled meeting with his teacher when she has time to sit with you rather than 5 minutes at 3:30.

I do agree that forced apologies are utterly and completely meaningful and just make kids into moderately good actors/ actresses who know how to "play the game" for an easy life, or make them resentful and angry where the child has a strong inate sense of justice and believes themselves misunderstood - it certainly doesn't make the child contrite, or do anything to develop a sense of right and wrong - for that you need to talk it through when everyone is calm and get to the bottom of the situation, then if the child actually was in the wrong (as with rudeness) get them to suggest how to make amends and come up with the suggestion of an apology. This only happens when they've felt listened to and any underlying problem has also been acknowledged (rude because the teacher didn't listen when I said I don't understand fractions/ should know this is too hard - ok, you understand that that was frustrating, so what should you do next time? Shall I write a note to the teacher asking her to explain fractions a bit more to the class/ group? What shall we do about the fact that even though you were frustrated it's never alright to be distrptive and ride in class?

Of course in the heat of the moment it's easier to just enforce, but it's a sticking plaster which does nothing to prevent a repeat. Sending to room to calm down is the best til everyone is calm, then decide what to do next.

Most kids apologise of their own accord if not forced to do it before they've calmed down, at least at such a young age.

• forced apologies are utterly and completely meaningless that should have said!

I don't think forced apologies are meaningless at all. They teach a child that when you had behaved badly the appropriate thing to do is to try to make amends. If your first suggestion is that you write to the teacher to try to change something the teacher is doing, you are just teaching your child that you will protect them from consequences, when you should be teaching them that their behaviour was unacceptable. By all means write to the teacher privately, but make sure your child understands that they don't have an excuse for rudeness.

What kind of picture did he draw?

Trifle - now that we have not used punishments at home as an automatic response to her negative behaviours and have looked more deeply into the situation she has actually become more responsible and accountable for her actions - making better decisions when frustrated , apologising when things have gone wrong and actively rectifying herself and actions.

Of course that is also balanced with her knowing that she must accept consequences in the manner expected of her in the outside world - ie she was very chatty during a history lesson so was given a detention . I showed her no sympathy and said tough luck and next time don't be chatting during lessons as it is very frustrating for teachers and the other kids when pupils talk incessantly ( she didn't expect sympathy - just matter of fact told me what had happened and I verified it with her teacher)

You sound like an absolute push over.

No Trifle - writing to the teacher privately would not fully address the problem and leave the child resentful and "done to" instead of listened to and able to deal with a similar situation in future.

If you just punish without letting the child know they are listened to the only thing they learn is that if they are frustrated and have an outburst they will have to apologize.

If you listen to them they learn that they solve problems by talking, rather than having outbursts to release pent up frustration then dutifully apologising.

The child has to be active in coming to the conclusion that they should apologise and in thinking of a better way to deal with whatever the problem is - your way send them the message that they can either put up and shut up or be naughty then be punished and apologise but that either way they won't be listened to so there is no better way to deal with problems.

sherazade: Fair enough - more than one way to skin a cat.