AIBU to think ff babies sleep better than bf babies?

[Scrumptiouscrumpets]

It seems blatantly obvious to me that ff babies sleep better than bf babies. Just take a look at the sleep board on here, the bad sleepers under a year old are more or less all bf (and many of the older ones too!). Yet nobody officially seems to acknowledge this, all bf info I can find on the Internet states that bf mums actually get more sleep than ff mums because it takes more time to make up a bottle etc. Well maybe that's true during the first three months but definitely not later on when the ff babies start sleeping in long stretches while the bf babies start to wake more and more often!
I have a 4 month old who is ebf and I love bf, but I am seriously considering switching to formula.
Am I just imagining things? Are all these bf blogs right and bf mums actually get more sleep?

Total BS. It's down to the individual baby, not how they are fed.

Breastfed babies have 40% more cortisol (the stress hormone). This affects the child. Period.

You're right about elevated levels of cortisol but wrong to imply that it's due to hunger stress. Cortisol occurs naturally in breast milk. Levels vary between women and it affects different babies differently. There's some suggestion that it may affect boys more than girls. We don't yet know why this happens or why it's important, but it's a reminder that we don't fully understand all of the complexities of breast milk.

Mine were ff from birth and sleep has always been great. We used the little 100ml ready made bottles, where you just screw on the sterilised teat, at room temp for the first few weeks and by 8 weeks I would do a dream feed at 10pm and they both slept til around 6am. Night feeds never really happened for us but as we used ready made formula, it wasn't arduous to make bottles at any time. Pour into bottle, pop into a cup of boiling water for a couple of minutes and feed baby. Wash bottle with other washing up, drop in steriliser and put that in the microwave when it had 4 bottles in. I've never understood the level of faff that is supposed to surround ff. For me it was as simple as making myself a warm drink and tidying away after it. I never tried powdered formula though so accept the method may be very different.

FATE would you seriously advise new mums (if you could, not saying that you would) not to breastfeed...

No I wouldn't. For any reason. That is exactly the reason for my post.

OP asked if there was some great conspiracy that makes other mums not talk about the downsides of breastfeeding. The (entirely predictable) response to my post shows exactly why the downsides don't get talked about.

Unless faced with a mum extremely upset and anxious about breastfeeding (when I probably would suggest formula) I would not advise anyone against breastfeeding for any reason.

What I think is a different matter.

The response to me putting thoughts into print here illustrates precisely why people avoid mentioning the disadvantages of BF.

cortisol levels in a baby matter. Newborn babies who are ff generally sleep better IMO because there is no hunger stress, ever. And therefore usually there is also no exhaustion stress.

I'm confused by this. Bottle fed DS1 refused to drink milk unless it was at body temperature, so every feed involved a delay while we got the milk to the right temperature. Not so bad in the daytime when we could look out for hunger cues, but at night, because we'd be asleep when he started feeling hungry, he'd usually end up screaming hysterically for a bit while we sorted his milk out. It made night feeds horribly stressful for me, and they must have been even more upsetting for DS1. Even if you've got a baby happy to drink cold ready made formula, surely there's an inevitable delay - which could cause hunger stress - while you get the bottle ready and to them?

Whereas breastfed DS2 and DS3 - as long as they're near enough to me, they could be offered the breast and breastfed almost immediately. The circumstances in which they haven't been able to be fed immediately are circumstances in which a FF baby couldn't be fed immediately either.

I have no idea why cortisol levels vary between FF and BF babies, but the theory that it's because BF babies suffer more hunger stress makes no sense to me.

But FATE, you didn't just mention the supposed "disadvantages" of breastfeeding - you insulted mums who breastfeed, calling them "precious" and accusing them of "stressing" their babies, when in fact all the medical evidence suggests that breastfeeding is optimum. I don't understand your claim about how formula fed babies have "no hunger stress, ever" - FF babies have to wait for their parents to prepare the bottles.

Oh, and co-sleeping - I never did co-sleeping with babies. We didn't think we could do it safely. They were in a crib in our bedroom to start with, and moved to a cot in their own rooms once they'd outgrown the crib.

This hasn't stopped DS1 (now 5 yrs old) sleeping with us. As soon as he was physically capable of it, he was climbing in our bed whenever he woke in the night. No matter how often we put him back in his own bed. He hates sleeping alone, despite the independent sleeping imposed on him from birth.
The only way to keep him out would be a lock on our bedroom door, which seems a little bit too extreme.

FATE Could you please link to the original published journal article for the cortisol study? I'd be interested to read it.

DD2 was FF, she f ed every 2 hours day and night til 5.5 months, DC3 is following suit

EBF DD1 slept waaaaaay better!

I think it's true. Breast becomes a habit. Both mine slept throughout EBF for 10 hours up until 4 months then it went shit.

So not true!! All kids ebf, 2 slept through from 6 weeks, the other from 10 months.

you insulted mums who breastfeed, calling them "precious"

No, I did not Pearl87. I said you don't need to be precious about breastfeeding.

I've breastfed three children. I am not precious about breastfeeding. By that I mean if the child was not content beastfeeding, I would change to formula.

There is always a point when it would be time to stop being precious about feeding method. There will be things more important than breastfeeding and it's at that point that the "being precious" comes into play.

In what way is that insulting Pearl87?

Re:decrease in cortisol levels in ff babies.
Reduction in cortisol levels in babies is mildly associated with SIDS.
May explain why bf protects against SIDS

Ebf two children. They wake up, whip out a nipple...happy baby and can do while half asleep. Perfect.
Yes, we co sleep.

3 kids, all EBF for between 16months and 2 years. Only one sleeper and that didn't happen until it was 2.

Eldest still gets up and roams round the house (she's an adult, still doesn't sleep in her 20's)

Middle one can't nap/lie in in the morning, eyes open at 6am and that's it for the day (he reads in bed)

Youngest is prone to wandering in for a chat at any time, is 7yo. It's horrendous

Not true, EBF 7 month old slept 7-7 since 3 months. And before that only had a couple of wake ups. Also very big baby, 98th percentile so not true that they are always small!

I think that's exactly the scientific basis of the link to SIDS Itsjustaphase2016.

It's a difficult subject to research since it would be heinous to induce stress in babies for the benefit of scientific study.

The study investigating cortisol levels in babies just tested saliva and urine samples and correlated to feeding type. It would be an ethically difficult subject to delve deeply into.

I FF from 3 weeks and my DD has always slept very well. I used the ready made sterile bottles for night feeds to reduce the faff and have milk good to go as soon as DD woke. She slept through 7-7 (bar an 11pm dream feed) from 4 months.
The other 7 women in my Nct BF their babies. They've all used some form of sleep training (after babies were 6 months old) and have had varying degrees of success. Some of them sometimes sleep through the night but not as consistently as my DD. Obviously far too small a sample to have any statistical significance but I do wonder if FF has played a part.
I also wonder if because FF mums are a bit less knackered they think about getting a bath, book, bed type routine organised a little earlier that gets the baby into the habit of sleeping during the evening/night.
The point about breast milk containing cortisol is very interesting. I guess it's a fat soluble hormone so makes sense it would end up in breast milk. I'm quite a stressy person so if there's any truth to that theory I'm relieved for my DD that I didn't expose her to all my extra anxiety in her milk.

The problem is that babies wake in the night, that's a fact. It's just that in modern times we have increased our expectation that babies should sleep all night!
I feel that although my breastfed kids probably woke more time in the night than a formula fed baby they didn't wake UP as much. The slept next to the bed or in bed with me, as soon as they stirred I would wake and feed them, we'd all stay warm and cosy under the covers then go back to sleep. If I had had to get out of bed and either leave baby in or crying or carry baby with me to the cold kitchen we would have both been much more fully awake and taken a lot longer to go back to sleep!

But FATE, what do you mean by "if the child is not content breastfeeding"? How can you tell? Babies are supposed to cry, and they're supposed to eat frequently, because their stomachs are tiny.

what do you mean by "if the child is not content breastfeeding"? How can you tell?

Can you not tell if your own child is content?

Thanks FATE. It was an interesting read!

Yes, I can tell if my child is content. If my child seemed discontented, why would I think it had anything to do with breastfeeding? (I'm not being sarcastic; I'm genuinely curious.)

My 2 dd's were fab sleepers. Both EBF & date I say it, Gina Ford weaned babies from 4mths with breastfeeding - couldn't manage it before then. And the at 6mths on to her wearing schedule & that was life changing for me. Both thrived on the rountine & great waters.
I do wonder it's all about not being hungry. Once you've cracked that, you're laughing. DD's are 13 & 10 now. DD1 still needs her routine!

I find it interesting too. From the point of view as someone who's breastfed 3 (and formula fed one), I do not breastfeed bash.

I am not sure of the scientific meaning behind the finding, which seem to have been unexpected in the study.

What I get a bit cross about is that the breastfeeding lobby aren't fully honest about breastfeeding, in exactly the way the op mentioned. It's like the establishment are scared to be open about the negative research for fear this will put people off breastfeeding. My humble opinion is that unreaslistic expectation does the most damage to the breastfeeding numbers.

It's like the breastfeeding and SIDS link. It's quite well researched that the reason SIDS risk is lower in bf babies is because bf babies sleep less deeply and wake more often (on average) compared to ff babies. Waking frequently and lighter sleeping lower SIDS risk.

It's a bit insulting to breastfeeding parents that these facts are kept quiet about, because if bf mums knew baby would wake more then they might not bf.

BF mums should be better prepared rather than being left ignorant of the facts in my view.