to think the Unions have a point?

[weresquirrel]

So many companies/services have been privatised. The effect seems to be branch closures, loss of staff to be replaced by machines, longer queues, worse service and a lot more expensive.

I also think it is frightening how many workers rights are being eroded and workers are expected to work far longer, for less pay and in worse conditions.

Of course the media makes out that the Unions are all evil, Christmas wrecking baddies but actually with the rise of zero-hours contracts and loss of any kind of security for so many people, I think they actually have a point.

Of course I don't wish any one delays and I hate the frustration of getting places on strike days but perhaps it is better that we have all this now while there is still the possibility of workers rights being maintained than we have a population of workers that has no rights and forced to acquiesce to the whims of the Government and big business?

Aren't union members hard working people, trying to protect their jobs and terms and conditions?

OP YANBU

Maybe blame the people at the top who are doing nothing to stop the strikes than those at the bottom who are just fighting for what is fair.

This isn't right at all when it's making 300,000 service users' lives hell

Maybe if those 300,000 service users blamed the company providing a fucking dismal service instead of complaining about the staff, things would change.

race to the bottom is the right bloody term people hate unions when it advisesly effets them, with the user saying if you dont like something just leave and get another job. If everyone thought like you the only jobs going would be the likes of sports direct werehouse employees where you get fired if you take more then 2 sick days but hey if they are the only employer in the area just move hey plenty more jobs out there right?

The tories and union hating media have broken the unions and mark my words in the next decade most people will be on zero hour contracts (aka side stepping the majority of employment law) eg oh your pregent sorry we have no hours for you in qualfying weeks so you only get MA oh wont work 12-16 hours shifts without breaks no hours again same with only getting 7 hours between shifts as evidenced in the sports direct werehouse case .

The raise of zero contracts and extra costs (£1250 fee to go to tribunal)and reduced protections (aka 2 year employmnt etc) all mean soon it will be a rush to the bottom and all show signs of a depressing picture for anyone not able to me a boss or company owner who benifets from the race to the bottom.

I've emigrated to Canada from the UK and worker's rights here are fairly pitiful (although better in unionized jobs). You don't realize how important the unions were, and continue to be, until you live elsewhere.

clopysow we DID blame the company. After a year of this, and the commute regularly stretching to over 3 hours each way instead of 1:15, I think most of us have gone beyond caring and now blame all of them. Do I blame Southern for profiteering? Absolutely. But I also blame the unions for encouraging extensive industrial action over an issue which I don't feel they can win on. No jobs are being lost, no salaries reduced, and the safety issue simply isn't a valid argument when the successful precedent of driver-operated doors is already in operation on other services, including those using the same rail network.

As to union workers working hard to protect people's jobs, I'm sure that's very noble, but there are NO JOBS AT RISK whatever the outcome of the strikes. Except those of us, the service user, who have been prevented from getting to ours on time for 12 months now!

YANBU to think this at all. When I volunteered in Citizen's Advice some of the things people had to put up with at work were appalling, nearly all of them were not union members so obviously ACAS had to be contacted. In one case it was advised to contact the police, such was the level of bullying which had become physical.

What have the Unions ever done for us?

www.tuc.org.uk/union-issues/what-have-trade-unions-done-us

YANBU, op. Workers' rights are important.

I think many people, myself included, are confused about unions nowadays, and whether to support or condemn strike action.

I'm a Labour party member (whatever the fuck the Labour party is anymore - another discussion) and I want to support the unions and workers, but it's hard to do so when they seem like dinosaurs living in a different world to most of us. And sending other people's lives into utter chaos.

I'm not sure I buy the safety argument re Southern trains. Isn't it just about jobs/money? If so, I sympathise, but I also feel they are not being truthful with us by banging on about safety.

The only personal experience I have had of a union rep was one where the rep in question was all (frothing) mouth and no trousers and had literally no positive or valuable input into the process I was in.

I believe in unions and workers' rights in theory but in practice...not so sure.

Sorry can I correct that, of course I believe in workers' rights! I mean reps striking for working rights.

The unions where I work have prevented a lot of shitty, illegal and generally dodgy restructure-related and unnecessary redundancies. Not all of them, but some. (and BTW I'm a fan of a judicious and carefully done restructure, they can breathe life back into an organisation. Just not that way our Dear Leader does them).

Generally speaking they've given us worker's rights and health and safety and maternity pay and more than an afternoon off a week and annual leave and loads of other useful things. Without the unions there would be no workers rights.

So I'm in full support of unions.

I'm working as a Christmas casual with Royal Mail. I've just had a text cancelling my shift today, so no money for me. This is the umpteenth time this has happened. I received a text yesterday confirming today's work too.
Although Royal Mail is unionised, this position is not. It's also how the future looks with no unions. Casualised labour, and you're totally at the whim of some idiot manager.

Workers must NEVER lose their right to strike.
Ffs. Unions have got us here today with sick leave, holidays, pay scales etc.
If u ions go the workers can kiss goodbye to any future fair pay rise in some industries and businesses.
It's so tupical of people's attitudes today. Me me me me. It's all about me. Or the Nimby attitude. Selfish people unable to give a shot as long as their life carries on unaffected.
I say this as having been a cancer paren't in 2015 and 2016 and still supporting the Dr's strikes. I say this as 3 members of my immediate family may not get home this Xmas due to airport workers strikes.

loss of staff to be replaced by machines

That is science, engineering, and progress. Remember when you could not open a magazine without an envelope falling out addressed to a photo-processing lab? That sector employed scores of thousands of people and it has all but disappeared. And who closed it? We did when we bought digital cameras and took the work from a low-wage to a no-wage economy - us at our computers. If you mean that nationalised businesses would not have bought into new technology which requires fewer workers I fear you are right but that is a reason why privatisation was right.

The unions do have a point but the travelling (and letter-posting) public should not be held to ransom. Unions and management have an over-riding responsibility to keep essential services going. The "right to strike" should be replaced by a right to have disagreements which cannot be resolved by negotiation referred to two-way-binding arbitration. Once that is done we will wonder why we ever did things any other way. And that includes the workers concerned who are also users of essential services.

I would not be averse to taking the railways back into public ownership but not on the old BR model with a board of the Great and the Good chaired by a superannuated politician with a life peerage. They should be run by transport professionals, with the backing of the unions and disagreements resolved as I just said. Oh, and we would have to pay fair compensation. If you disagree ask how much your pension fund and life insurance has tied up in the shares of the train operating companies. And think of the trip to Strasbourg if we tried not to pay.

*Haven't we just had a whole 6 months of people telling us that there are a whole load of people that feel left behind, who are just about managing, who fear for their jobs etc etc.

Funny how its convenient to be their champion when it suits, and to disparage them when they need support.

Trade unions are vital to stopping the exploitation of staff, as we have seen with Amazon others.*

Quote from further upthread, worth a repost I think.

In my former job, striking was illegal (armed forces).
They fucked around with & changed my pay, terms & conditions numerous times over my time in - all for the worse.
There was fuck all we could do about it - no recourse at all.

I fully support these workers, and I fully support the 'right to strike' - it's an invaluable right to have.

Meanwhile the posties are going on strike

No they aren't

... if they don't want to work I will use email and not bother with the post. How exactly will it help if people stop posting letters in response to strikes?

Use e-mail if you like - but it's a bit daft to claim it's "in response to strikes"

Mango and the armed forces argument is supported by the fire fighters union. The army is often compared to fire fighters in terms of t&cs and pay. If the pay and conditions of fire fighters drop so will the pay and conditions in the army. It is vital comparable public services maintain standards to help and support the armed forces. They can't strike so we have to to help maintain, not just our t&cs but theirs.

We are together in this.