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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to want to carry on this interesting discussion about the Child Protection System?

313 replies

Spero · 14/12/2016 20:24

Following on from this www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2792849-AIBU-to-be-horrified-by-the-Stolen-Children-of-England?

I thought it was interesting. Some people didn't agree with me and said they would tell me why. I would like to hear their views.

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Hardshoulder · 15/12/2016 19:10

I wonder if some of the difference between the UK and the rest of Europe is to do with the Second World War and the aftermath? Certainly we had cities being bombed, children evacuated, families disrupted because of war service, but that was nothing like the reality over very large parts of Europe. And, of course, there’s been ongoing devastation ever since in some parts.

That could lead to a different attitude of, say, keeping a family together as the top priority, as well as much more experience of providing children’s homes for orphans or displaced children.

I don't think so, icy - Ireland was neutral in WWII but, like many other European countries, has minimal domestic adoption because the consent of the birth parents is required.

Lean, but isn't it the case that many of those activity days are designed to get prospective adopters into the same room as 'hard to place' children (sibling groups, older children etc) whom they might have ruled out in the abstract, so they can get a sense of the real children behind the paper description?

I haven't any personal experience of it, admittedly, but from what I know of the adoption process via friends, it's far less like buying some consumer item than answering a set of very difficult direct questions that involve a lot of soul-searching and honestly, like 'Could you cope with a child with Disability X?' Disability X and Y? A child who's been sexually abused?' etc and agonising when a social worker mentions a possible match.

Namejustfornappies · 15/12/2016 20:28

A bit of a tangent - but someone upthread referred to toxic home life when in utero as a possible cause of adoption breakdown.

  • I knew drugs/alcohol could affect a child in utero, but I didn't know just being in a bad home could! How bad does it have to be?! And say a child is taken for adoption from birth -from a mother who didn't have an alcohol or drugs problem - and was adopted before say age 2 - will they still have been "damaged/harmed" by this?

I'm obviously a bit naïve as I thought if a baby was taken at birth, looked after by one foster family before adoption, then once attachments have been made with the new family there would be any problems! But it has been implied that problems may still reveal themselves in the teen years? Is that correct?

tldr · 15/12/2016 20:31

lean you're muddling your apples and your oranges.

Adopter recruitment is the posters featuring a sunny field, mum and dad and the backs of two blond heads.

The activity days you're talking about are for finding families for children who are awaiting adoption, particularly those who might seem less easy to place on paper. The 'families' at those are all already approved adopters.

Spero · 15/12/2016 20:35

I'm obviously a bit naïve as I thought if a baby was taken at birth, looked after by one foster family before adoption, then once attachments have been made with the new family there would be any problems! But it has been implied that problems may still reveal themselves in the teen years? Is that correct?

Yes. A baby is exposed to a lot in utero. An obvious example is drugs and alcohol. A child born with Foetal Alcohol Syndrome will have life long problems, regardless of how happy a foster home he immediately goes to.

Same applies to a baby in the womb whose mother is very stressed. As far as I understand the research, this can have an impact on the how the baby will develop when born and is part of the reason why violence in relationships is taken so seriously.

one of the mothers in the potato group adopted her children at 6 months and 2 years. Very serious problems manifested when the children were teenagers and I think neither lives at home any more.

Some research here www.theguardian.com/science/2007/may/31/childrensservices.medicineandhealth

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Spero · 15/12/2016 20:37

Sorry - you did say you knew drugs and alcohol affected child in utero!

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tldr · 15/12/2016 20:38

namechange

I'm obviously a bit naïve as I thought if a baby was taken at birth, looked after by one foster family before adoption, then once attachments have been made with the new family there would be any problems!

Then the child has still lost it's birth family and its foster family. Which may or may not cause issues. (Total sidebar; In adoption, loss of birth family, even if child is removed at birth is considered a loss/traumatic. I wonder if it's treated the same in surrogacy?)

Then add to that any stress that birth mum was under during pg. (Just think of the millions of articles you have to endure everywhere about how everything you do whilst pg affects/harms baby in some way.)

Spero · 15/12/2016 20:42

once attachments have been made with the new family...

I think this also indicates a misunderstanding about what attachment is and why it is important.

'Attachment' describes how we develop a sense of ourselves and our relationships with other people - whether we can depend on others to keep us safe, and whether we believe, deep down inside, we are worth keeping safe.

There is lots of talk of 'transfer of attachment' which I think frankly is bollocks. A child who has a 'disorganised' or 'avoidant' attachment is one that has not had the chance to feel safe and cared for by adults. It is possible to help that child develop attachments with really good, reparative parenting - but a child can't just 'transfer' an attachment which was never there in the first place.

I have often said that the focus on adoption must move away from providing children to those who can't have their own biological children, to training parents to be 'professional parents' to some possibly very traumatised children.

I discuss attachment in more detail here

childprotectionresource.online/what-is-attachment-theory-why-is-it-important/

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Namejustfornappies · 15/12/2016 20:42

Oh that's scary. I've had ridiculous amounts of stress with each of my 3 pregnancies - DH almost dying, redundancy, house moves falling through and having to move in with PIL, abusive neighbours, just to name a few! :(Sorry for the derail though.

I wonder how much research had been done on how long term outcomes depend (or not) on how early a child is removed.

Namejustfornappies · 15/12/2016 20:44

Sorry xposted

Hmm I see what you both mean. Will read up more.

Spero · 15/12/2016 20:46

Please don't be scared. The type of stress that does the damage is linked to violent and abusive relationships, where the women is probably scared pretty much all the time. Even if you go through stressful life events, if you have a supportive family and friends, you will get time to recover.

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Leanback · 15/12/2016 20:52

tldr I know that I just couldn't think of a better word than adoption recruitment. I should have tried harder but it's been a long day at work Grin

That's what friends who work in adoption tell me about activity days, but they still make me feel uneasy. As I said I have no experience with these days myself.

spero is again bang on about training professional parents. I do think this is why foster care works for some children over adoption, because the foster carers are considered professionals and have constant support. After a short while adoptive parents seem to be expected to fend for themselves to some extent.

Namejustfornappies · 15/12/2016 20:57

I've just discovered I know basically nothing about how early trauma affects children. And I'm slightly worried about this - I'm a teacher, and although ive not gone down the pastoral route, plenty of teachers have quite a large influence in a lot of children's lives. I am starting to think that this should be included in teacher training and INSETs so teachers can gave a better understanding about what LAC and others may be facing. Because I'm sure I'm not the only one who has thought "they have a lovely family now - why is there a problem?" Blush

tldr · 15/12/2016 21:05

namechange, few teachers do know about it, IME. Also medical professionals, health visitors etc. The 'all you need is love' narrative is quite prevalent. It's quite an eye opener.

But then, nor did I til I started looking into adoption. Our school has had training now (using LOs pupil premium money) but only because I told them they should and pointed them at resources.

TheLongRoadToXmas · 15/12/2016 21:07

Spero Just a thought, I know that Government departments fund research into public policy issues. It would be worth looking for possible funding from both Department for Education and Department of Health, I suspect, though whether it will be the right time in the funding round etc I don't know. If you think it's a good idea, pm me and I'll happily do a bit of digging to find out a bit more about any opportunities, if you don't have time for googling.

Namejustfornappies · 15/12/2016 21:27

Sorry, another derail. Do pregnant women who might be on the SS radar get parenting lessons, and information about how damaging early trauma is to children? Or do they just get told they must do "x y z" or their child will be taken away.
Because if I wanted a yr 11 class to do something productive, and excel themselves, it's certainly not by the latter tactic!

everythingis · 15/12/2016 21:37

Name - yes it's usually included in the child protection plan but this doesn't come in to effect before the baby is born. Those pg women are encouraged to engage with local services though but what's available is location specific.
Mothers who have had previous children removed are the most likely to be on the radar and the most closely monitored.

Namejustfornappies · 15/12/2016 21:45

Thanks for answering

Spero · 15/12/2016 21:58

Name - please don't feel bad. Many social workers don't seem to know much about attachment, so I would not criticise teachers for not being fully up to speed. The potato group has just posted something on Twitter about attachment aware schools, I will find it and post it.

Also, I am afraid it simply isn't as easy as telling someone to go on a parenting course or to 'be aware'.

Support services have been cut, many Sure Start centres have shut down. Problems for parents can be a toxic mess of social, economic and environmental problems - can't just be fixed with a few courses. Parents can themselves be products of their own deprived upbringing and may find it very difficult to learn new approaches without considerable help - which isn't available.

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Underthenutellaellaella · 15/12/2016 21:59

Name- if you want to know more, check out Louise Bomber's books- all about attachment and school and the long term and wide ranging impact. In utero and early trauma can also have long lasting effects on aspects of brain development like executive functioning skills, which don't improve just by being out of the abusive/neglectful environment, and which are key to emotional regulation as well as skills needed for learning.

Spero · 15/12/2016 22:02

the-arc.org.uk/?#stoke-video

Hopefully this is the link to a video about Attachment Aware schools.

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conserveisposhforjam · 15/12/2016 22:02

Namechange if I had known, when I was teaching, what I know now about trauma/attachment etc it would have completely changed how I did everything and I have absolutely no doubt it would have changed my relationships with my pupils hugely. And I say that knowing that I actually had great relationships with kids I taught.

Can I recommend Dan Hughes books and his system/technique which is called PACE if you'd like to know more.

JigglyTuff · 15/12/2016 22:03

I know that many adoptive parents have welcomed the changes that Gove implemented but it makes me uneasy that a politician is allowing his own personal experiences to colour policy to such a degree.

I think activity days are a lot less consumerist than the brochures of children's faces. Those, while I understand the need for them, do make uneasy reading.

So glad you managed to get this thread off the ground Spero

Spero · 15/12/2016 22:15

Tldr - the 'warm, loving families' is, shockingly the mantra continually trotted out by Central Gov.

It's a betrayal of the children who need reparative parenting AND a cruel lie to tell their parents.

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Namejustfornappies · 15/12/2016 22:15

I know it's not that simple Spero - but it is a start. A lot of parents (in my experience) really don't think they are doing any harm, even when it is blatantly obvious to an outsider. I know a lot of families run on chaos - it's familiar, gives purpose, gains attention, lack of skills not to. And it is hard to get out of it. But also some parents just parent in the way they themselves were parented, knowing it was crap, simply because they don't know any other way to do it. And providing other tools to get cooperative children might help them not fall back on the casual threats and violence they know and are familiar with.

Thanks for all the links etc - looks like I've got a lot of reading to do! Grin

Namejustfornappies · 15/12/2016 22:21

I've just read back what I've posted. I really don't mean to be judgemental so I hope it doesnt come across that way!

Re reparative parenting - I have a friend who adopted about 4 years ago - and a lot of her course was about attachment and something called theraplay. Is that what you mean, or is it something more?