To ask for your take on this situation - families/ money/ dementia/ drama

[Pondling]

Apologies but this is quite long - would like external viewpoints so will attempt to present the facts as neutrally as possible:

Two sisters, let's say Ann and Barbara. Both 60+, largely NC due to not seeing eye to eye over anything, but particularly over the care of their elderly mother, henceforth known as GM.

GM has had worsening dementia for some years, but has lived alone with increasing support from carers, and from Ann who lives close by. Ann has always lived close by, has seen her mother regularly, and has both powers of attorney. Barbara emigrated 20 years ago but has remained fairly close to her mum. Barbara is not well off, and a couple of years ago Ann noticed that money was regularly leaving GM's account, going to Barbara. It transpired Barbara had the bank details and was basically helping herself - but claimed she always asked and GM said it was ok, which may well have been true. Whether GM was able to make such decisions is debatable. Large fallout ensued, Ann stopped Barbara's access to the bank accounts as she felt she was taking advantage of GM. They have been NC since.

This summer GM had a bad fall, and it became clear she would not be able to leave hospital to return home, and would have to go into a care home. Ann arranged all this. Barbara was informed and never replied. GM's flat had to be sold, and Ann's son and DP said they would he interested in buying it. Ann had the flat valued by several agents, and has arranged that it be sold to the son and DP for slightly less than market value to reflect the fact it is a private sale without agents fees. The price agreed has been declared reasonable by both parties' solicitors, and has been approved by the office of the public guardian.

GM now needs 24 hour care. She is settled in her home, and while though the loss of familiar surroundings and her fall have undoubtedly worsened her condition, she seems as happy a possible in the circumstances. The sale is going ahead with exchange due just before Christmas and the proceeds will enable her to remain at the private care home for as long as necessary.

Barbara has now emailed Ann to say the sale is illegal as the house was not offered on the open market, that she will be returning to the UK and removing GM from the home, and intends to move herself and her DP into GM's flat to care for her. She intends to take Ann to court if she refuses any of this. Ann is very upset and worried, as are her son and his DP. Not least about the impact on GM if she has her surroundings changed again and is left to inexperienced carers.

Has Ann behaved badly allowing her son to buy the flat?! Can Barbara remove her mother when Ann has power of attorney and placed her there, and GM definitely no longer has capacity?!

Ann ought to have reported Barbara for financial abuse when she was taking money without consent (somebody with diminished mental capacity can't give consent - it's upto to whoever has POA afaik).

That said, selling properties to family members for a lot less than market value leaves a bad taste in my mouth - how much less are we talking here?

It sounds as if Barbara is trying to protect any potential inheritance, however caring for somebody with dementia isn't easy-my mother did it for years.

What I mean by that is by offering to care for her she is potentially buying off way more than she can chew, and GM may suffer as a consequence.

No she has no right to do this if it can be shown that GM has not got the capacity to make that particular decision.
I would say if the house sale for that price was agreed by the OPG then that is fine.

It's not a lot less than the market value. It's about £2000 less which is roughly what the agents' fees would be if it was sold through an agency. It is a lot less than flats in the same block have been sold for, but that's because it hasn't had anything done to it for forty years. It's possible if Barbara is comparing the prices without being aware that the other flats sold recently were fully refurbished (and she has no way of knowing that, to be fair- Ann was told by the agents who valued GM's flat) then she may genuinely think it's being sold for a lot less than its market value, but it isn't.

Yes I'm sure Barbara is attempting to protect her inheritance, under the guise of it being better for her mum to be cared for at home.

I think poa allows Ann to do as she thinks is best in her Mum's interest. Provided she can prove the sale was above board and the discount reflects a quick sale and a reduction in lounge with average Agent's fees, then all is well. Barbara will have to seek legal advice at her own expense to verify all of this, but I imagine that if all was approved by the Public Guardian she doesn't have a case? Ann should point this out politely to Barbara, who is clearly unaware of her Mum's current needs..

Selling the flat to family is not illegal the solicitors would've told you if it was. GM can't be forcibly removed from the nursing home and as one daughter has POA all decisions are made by her so the nursing home would have to ask the daughter that has POA they won't just let the other daughter come in and remove her and she can't take them to court over it either she's only annoyed because in her mind that's her inheritance being spent she should've been done for financial abuse when she was stealing money.

If it's only £2k then I doubt she has a leg to stand on. I'd also argue that caring for somebody with dementia at home doesn't provide a better level of care in many circumstances. Some people with dementia become abusive, they wander and forget where they live. They can be a danger to themselves and it's important she has adequate care. I'm assuming you're Ann's dc?

Are you Ann's son's partner? Have you contacted a solicitor for advice?

Tell Barbara to swivel and think herself lucky that she wasn't hauled back to the UK under police charges.

I'm Ann's daughter. My brother and SIL are buying the flat. I was asked what I thought at the time and basically said what's been said here - it's a fair price, they're good buyers - why shouldn't they have it? The important thing is GM has the money from the sale to pay the home. She is very well cared for there and yes can be very difficult now. I don't think DM or I could manage to care for her and we're a lot more used to her than Barbara. I'm just fuming about the whole thing as my DM has had no support in dealing with anything from her sister and now she's swooping in causing upset and misery as per bloody usual.

Neutrality fail

Reading things like this makes me glad I am an only child. My mum recently had to move into a nursing home and that was traumatic enough. I also had to clear her home of 42 years and it is awful without the added upset of fighting with siblings.

Write to Barbara to cease and desist her threats, otherwise there will be further consequences.

I would explain to Barbara that the circumstances under which she took the mine from GM were suspicious and you will report it to the relevant authorities as you suspect financial abide and can't guarantee her financial safety should Barbara be her FT carer. That should scare her off.

The authorities do take FA seriously.

Abuse not abide

The Court of Protection approved the sale. As long as they weren't mislead, Barbara is on a hiding to nothing with trying to stop the sale.

Simply showing them the price on Zoopla or Rightmove without taking into account the valuations Anne and her son have had done and disregarding the actual state of the flat will not convince a judge that financial foul play occurred.

Barbara will have to go through a loooooong and complicated process in order to have Anne struck out as incompetent.

Anne has had to submit yearly accounts to the Court of Protection and Barbara will have to argue that body of evidence.

It will also give Anne the opportunity to show Barbara had been helping herself to GM's money when she was abroad and, therefore, not spending the money to GM's benefit. Anne has a tally of how much GM has had taken from her hasn't she?

Barbara can shout and threaten all she likes but the sale has gone through, she has no idea of thr physical circumstances and she was the one taking money after GM was officially senile.

Just smile and say "Good luck with that, Babs. See you in court".

It looks like Ann has done everything by the book so there shouldn't be anything to worry about, if she gets a letter from Barbara's solicitor then she should just pass it to her own solicitor to reply.
I would alert the care home if it looks likely that Barbara might attempt to remove the lady, reminding them that Ann has POA and not Barbara.

If Anne has PoA (and this is not shared with Barbara) then she has the legal right to make decisions about welfare (so health care, where GM lives and personal care matters and so on) and financial matters. As PoA, however, your actions must always represent the person who has lost capacity and make decisions based on their best interests and should take seriously any previously expressed wishes of that person.

Based on this, I would say Barbara cannot remove her mother from a nursing home without Anne's consent. Nor can she appoint herself as carer and make a unilateral decision to move into GM's home with her DP. Barbara could, however, dispute whether decisions made by Anne have been made solely with GMs best interests in mind and take it to court. On the face of it this would seem unlikely to be successful given the situation described.

However, I agree with a PP regarding selling GM's property to Anne's DS and his partner for below market value seeming a bit off. Although I can see where the reasoning for it has come (private sale and so reduced costs), I can also see how it could very easily be construed as Anne misusing her position as PoA to benefit her son by agreeing to selling him the property at below market value. As PoA, Anne really ought to be trying to sell the property for as much as possible so that GM maximises the potential of what is most probably her main asset (but I suppose that depends on how much below market value we are talking). That aspect doesn't sit quite right with me, but if court of protection and solicitors are satisfied then I suppose it must be above board.

It's essentially being sold for full market value, given that there are no estate agent fees to pay, is my understanding?

Sorry OP- I see it was only £2k less than market value. On that basis, I take back what I said about it not sitting quite right. I had thought we were talking substantially more than that.

I think your supposition re Barbara looking on rightmove etc and taking those prices as indicative of the value of GMs flat, without realising that GMs was worth less because it needs work done, is behind this. If that is the case, then I can see how she might think Anne was pulling a fast one to give her DS a helping hand by selling the flat far below market value (not that this makes the rest of her behaviour ok).

Barbara doesn't have a leg to stand on here.

I'd inform the nursing home of the situation, too, so that Babs cannot remove GM.

I'd tell her to cease and desist her threats and go swivel.

If you look on right move you can see what prices other houses/flats on the street have sold for, but you can also click through on most of them to the online advert for them with full descriptions and photos. This would show definitively that the other flats were modernised etc.
I was in a similar situation and can say with poa in place other people cannot make decisions for your gm. I was not even allowed to take person out for a walk without permission.
Good luck hope your brother gets to move before Christmas

But maybe difficult to ascertain market value if it has never actually been offered on the open market. Who is to say a better buyer would not be found. Ann's son has undoubltedly profited from a private sale.

It is not illegal to sell a house privately??? Not quite the same but vendor of a property looked on Rightmove - thought he could get about 30 - 40K more than property worth based on that. Refused offer of someone I know - could have been private sell with no fees. He put it on open market. Got almost same as offer - property hadn't been touched in years/needed lots of work. He was unrealistic looking on rightmove/zoopla as doesn't really take account of property's actual state. Not sure if that helps at all.

Also you have stated that public guardians and the solicitors agreed reasonable price.

Cant see any illegalities here.