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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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to think stripping naked to shower after PE at school was horrific? **title edited by MNHQ**

883 replies

Flowersinyourhair · 05/12/2016 22:35

Recent conversations with my daughter about PE at school (she loves it, I hated it) have got me thinking about why I disliked it so much.

I was reminded of the hideous shower experience. After PE, the girls would be obliged to have a naked shower, all in together. We would then have to go to the teacher, totally starkers and dripping wet, and bit ticked off on a register to say we'd had a shower.

I can't to this day understand why it mattered so much. It's a safeguarding nightmare really and I'm so glad it doesn't work like that anymore.

AIBU to think it's no reason I hated PE and to ask whether my school was particularly weird??

OP posts:
Toadinthehole · 08/12/2016 18:10

Andrewofgg

Some boys might not have minded communal showers. I hated them, and looking back it's clear I wasn't the only one. If you looked in the wrong direction you'd be accused of being "gay" and possibly get hit. A friend of mine was slapped so hard on the back that one could read the palmist's lines in the red handprint. Getting whacked with towels wasn't so bad, except the tougher boys did it as a reminder that they ruled the roost.

There were no teachers in the changing area to enforce showering; there was no need. I saw boys who tried to evade showering thrown in by the other boys, sometimes in their uniform. No one ever complained about the showers. This was SE England late 80s early 90s. The PE teachers were OK, but they definitely encouraged 'manliness'.

orangeyellowgreen · 08/12/2016 18:20

My school did not have showers. If I'd had to show my naked body to anybody I would killed myself, because I had been sexually abused for years.
I doubt I was alone in feeling this degree of self-consciousness during the usually self-conscious adolescence.

Andrewofgg · 08/12/2016 18:21

Toadinthehole I am older than you; 1952 vintage. Maybe that is why our experiences differed.

Either way, it appears from this thread that the treatment of girls in this respect remains intolerable. And worse in one way than in my day; from 11 to 13 I was at a mixed secondary school where the girls did not do cross-country at all and so were not "available" to be perved at by passing drivers.

ClassmateHB · 08/12/2016 18:34

I was at secondary 93-98. And we were made to have communal showers. If we had our period we had to say "pyramid" ?!?! And we got out of it, but she marked the register to check. She would watch as well.

But she also did some questionable grooming at our school on a couple of students. I really disliked her.

I'm not one to care about nakedness tbh, I happily change in communal rooms at the gym etc. But these showers in the mid nineties were wrong.

And I never figured out why we were allowed male PE teachers (female school) but we were allowed gay females? It's almost like they didn't believe women were capable of abuse and grooming.

ClassmateHB · 08/12/2016 18:35

*weren't allowed male but were allowed female

SeventyNineBottlesOfWine · 08/12/2016 18:53

Lesbians don't groom and abuse children- they are interested in adult women.
Gay men are not interested in young boys- paedophiles are.
Paedophiles groom and abuse children.
Can we stop comparing homosexuals to child sexual offenders please?
I do however agree that there was no belief that women were capable of grooming and abusing.

brasty · 08/12/2016 18:53

You are seriously saying lesbians or bisexual women should not be allowed to be PE teachers?

Toadinthehole · 08/12/2016 18:55

I should add that the friend in question was quietly getting changed and not even looking up when the slap came in. He didn't respond - the other boy was looking for a fight he'd have won. As he didn't get one he bragged about how clear the handprint was. This was quite a normal sort of thing. I remember casting my friend a sympathetic look, but other than that we never talked about it.

Oh fuck, and then there was the time I wore underpants with cars on them. I remember my cheeks burning with shame at the howls of derision. And I got given a dead arm. We used to thump each others BCG scars too so they wouldn't heal properly.

As Orwell says, such, such were the joys. :-/

NeedsAsockamnesty · 08/12/2016 18:57

What is the thinking behind having male staff supervising boys and female staff supervising girls?

brasty · 08/12/2016 19:01

Lots of the cases that have been in the public about boys being sexually abused by adults, has been by men who seem straight. The idea that lesbian and gay people are more likely to sexually abuse, is wrong.

Toadinthehole · 08/12/2016 19:06

Oh, and there was a group of blokes in the year above, who used to get changed so slowly that when we came in we'd have to observe their big hairy balls. The first time I ever manspreading.

andrew I think what made it so intolerable for me was that at home I was never naked in front of anyone and yet it was expected at school that I should be so in front of a good number of people I didn't know or hated. Also, it was, unsurprisingly, the place where bullying was at its worst - no teachers present, so slaps, kicks and punches happened every time. Was your school like that?

ClassmateHB · 08/12/2016 20:08

No brasty that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is when we complained about behaviour, we were told we weren't allowed male PE staff as we were all girls and the risk was too high. Though they saw nothing wrong with female staff who had the same sexual orientation. So when you are seeing someone groomed by a woman, as a teenager, you fail to see the logic behind this. Of course not every lesbian will fancy girls, as of course not every straight man will like underage girls - that's a given. But the logic that the school had in the 90s was seriously flawed to all of us.

Bedsheets4knickers · 08/12/2016 20:31

They made us do this . Can't believe I even entertained it .. it's hard enough being 14

BBQsAreSooooOverrated · 08/12/2016 20:49

I left school in 1998 and had the same showering issue when I was in high school. Teacher would stand at the exit of the shower - it was a sort of 'U' shape, and check us off one by one that we were sufficiently wet enough to have had a shower. She would also put a 'p' on the register if we had our period. Fucking weird. Can't believe so many schools were the same!

seagreengirl · 08/12/2016 21:59

OMG the sanitary belt and massive pads, I actually have tears pricking my eyes at the memory of the embarrassment.

I haven't thought about this stuff for years, I wish I could give my 13 year old self, and all the thousands of others, a hug.

liz70 · 08/12/2016 22:12

I was so sheltered. I honestly assumed that because we didn't shower after P.E. at either primary or secondary school, then noone else at any other school did either. I thought our never used showers were just some throwback from when we took boarders. This thread has been such an eye-opener for me - how awful for everyone who endured this humiliation. Sad

TakeItFromMe · 08/12/2016 22:26

Despite having gone through it myself I'm seriously shocked by how widespread it was, and how now, looking back with adult eyes, how wrong it was.

I too want an apology from the Dept of Education. I still feel violated now aged nearly 40. There must be so many women out there, non-Mumsnet too, who feel like this and don't get this catharsis. I just feel devastated for the 14 year old me, and my friends, and all of you, who went through it and didn't know any better.

alfagirl73 · 08/12/2016 22:29

Some of the stuff on here is absolutely HORRIFIC. It really does make you think about how things used to be and what teachers (and other people in positions of power) were allowed to get away with. There was a definite culture of inflicting significant humiliation on kids at school - particularly when it came to PE and you really do have to ask yourself what was going on in the heads of some of the teachers who clearly got off on it!

I remember my first PE lesson at secondary school and the PE teacher (who was a complete cow right to the end!) taking great pleasure in informing us that if we "forgot" our towels for showers after PE and/or for swimming, we would have to stand naked and drip dry in front of everyone! If you were already bullied at school, the whole PE experience was a whole new level of hell!

And this was at a school where there were at LEAST 2 teachers with a KNOWN history of sexual offences against female pupils. But as others have pointed out, this was in the days when such things just weren't taken seriously; my mum would ALWAYS take the word of an adult over me - especially a teacher. To her, teachers were, and still are, gods! She could watch a teacher cut my arm off and would still say the teacher had good reason to do it!

Thinking about it - is it really any wonder that there is a massive generation that HATES sport?! They made our early experiences of proper sport such utter hell... it's not difficult to get a sudden unpleasant reminder of it when visiting a gym or health club.

Justaboy · 08/12/2016 23:09

Are things any better in schools nowadays?.

Are there any PE teachers here who would care to comment?.

MsGameandWatch · 08/12/2016 23:37

OMG, the "forgotten towels", that had totally left my mind. We had to dry ourselves on our "sweaty" PE kit if we forgot our towel, so obviously that wasn't going to cover us up as we walked over to the shower. So we had to walk across the room naked, into the showers, then back across the room to dry ourselves on our PE kit - an airtex shirt and a gym skirt. At no point would we be covered up. Just awful.

liz70 · 08/12/2016 23:42

This would be inhumane if it were done to prisoners, never mind children and adolescent girls and boys. Angry

Solo · 09/12/2016 00:51

PE at primary school was vest and knickers for girls, but I don't recall the boys wearing vest and pants so maybe they had shorts on. I know I wasted part of one particular PE lesson hen I refused to take my slip off and reveal my Airtex vest. Everyone was annoyed with me ~ egged on by the teacher that I was wasting the lesson :(

Toadinthehole · 09/12/2016 03:44

As no PE teachers have ventured an explanation as to why girls and boys were treated in such an insensitive way I will give one of my own.

Enjoyment of PE, leastways at my secondary school, wasn't the prime objective of the lessons as far as I could tell. Their purpose was to toughen us up, make us able to cope with physical discomfort. Hence the rough tackling on a semi-frozen pitch in January, the unheated changing room, and the communal shower. I really do think the point was to make it unpleasant and humiliating in the belief that putting kids through that would toughen them up mentally as well as physically - and if things went really well, encourage us to get our arms and legs blown off in the service of our country.

A couple of my changing-room tormentors at school actually enlisted in the Army. I try not to hope anything bad happened to them.

It wasn't just British schools in recent times that did this: read what George Orwell, Roald Dahl and CS Lewis have to say about their schools in earlier times. They were public schools, but I reckon the postwar expansion of state education imitated them, and this tendency to inflict discomfort on the children has probably died very hard. I'm going to quote this by Orwell about his prep school because it is so ghastly:

If I shut my eyes and say ‘school’, it is of course the physical surroundings that first come back to me: the flat playing field with its cricket pavilion and the little shed by the rifle range, the draughty dormitories, the dusty splintery passages, the square of asphalt in front of the gymnasium, the raw-looking pinewood chaplet at the back. And at almost every point some filthy detail obtrudes itself. For example, there were the pewter bowls out of which we had our porridge. They had overhanging rims, and under the rims there were accumulations of sour porridge, which could be flaked off in long strips. The porridge itself, too, contained more lumps, hairs and unexplained black things than one would have thought possible, unless someone were putting them there on purpose. It was never safe to start on that porridge without investigating it first. And there was the slimy water of the plunge bath — it was twelve or fifteen feet long, the whole school was supposed to go into it every morning, and I doubt whether the water was changed at all frequently — and the always-damp towels with their cheesy smell: and, on occasional visits in the winter, the murky sea-water of the local Baths, which came straight in from the beach and on which I once saw floating a human turd. And the sweaty smell of the changing-room with its greasy basins, and, giving on this, the row of filthy, dilapidated lavatories, which had no fastenings of any kind on the doors, so that whenever you were sitting there someone was sure to come crashing in. It is not easy for me to think of my schooldays without seeming to breathe in a whiff of something cold and evil-smelling — a sort of compound of sweaty stockings, dirty towels, faecal smells blowing along corridors, forks with old food between the prongs, neck-of-mutton stew, and the banging doors of the lavatories and the echoing chamber-pots in the dormitories.

Now this of course is from a male perspective, but it's relevant because PE was developed in boys' schools and only came to girls' schools later by which time the concept was fully formed. It seems to me there wasn't any thought given to how even more humiliating it would be for girls who were taught (and still are taught) that anything relating to their bodies is taboo while by requiring them to parade naked in front of comparative strangers. I am grateful that I never had anything so intrusive as a period check or a bulging sanitary towel. While it is true that involuntary erections can happen to boys, they generally don't happen when you're freezing your bollocks off and know you could get punched at any moment without warning.

KERALA1 · 09/12/2016 07:07

Not one Pe teacher on this thread with an explanation or justification - not one. Speaks volumes.

liz70 · 09/12/2016 07:50

This cannot have been compulsory nationwide at any time, as it never happened at any of my schools, primary or secondary, so I can only think that it must have been individual school policy. Either that, or all three schools were just ignoring any mandate, but I don't see how likely that can have been. So really, I don't know if the Dept of Education can be held to blame here - just the individual school, surely.