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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Toddler left alone in supermarket carpark

59 replies

elasticated17 · 03/12/2016 00:36

Something really odd just happened to me - pulled up next to car in supermarket carpark - saw the car next to me with the window down a little bit. There was a young boy with a dummy - between 2-3 years old left in the back of the car. The boy looked fine, not upset and the car was clean but AIBU to think that its completely irresponsible. The car was parked about 30 metres from the storefront and I stayed for a while to see if parents were perhaps just dropping the trolley off but they weren't. I reported to customer service and then when I got back to my car half hour later it was gone. I'm not usually one to get involved but it didn't sit well with me.

OP posts:
Pardonwhat · 04/12/2016 07:57

Weather permitting I've done this lots of team and will continue to do so.
Single parent so I've no one else to pop to the shop for me. If it's freezing or bucketing it down with rain then I'll leave her in the car whilst I run in petrol station or corner shop. Not sure what you all think the risk factor is. She doesn't get distressed and I can see car at all times. Much safer than crossing a petrol forecourt with a child anyway.
Of course children left to overheat in hot cars is a completely different issue and something I'd be calling the police and smashing a window for.

differentnameforthis · 04/12/2016 08:34

Yeah, nah, it's really not 'illegal' in any state or territory of Australia to leave a child alone in a car. In South Australia you can be prosecuted for leaving your kids in the car at a petrol station, or if you go into a shop.

You can also be prosecuted for letting them to school alone, too young, as you can if you leave them home too young.

differentnameforthis · 04/12/2016 08:36

*walk to school alone

sixandoot · 04/12/2016 11:05

It is. Penalties vary from fines to imprisonment. Qld is maximum 3 years. Wa, Nsw and Victoria also have laws regarding unattended children which cover homes and cars.

Nope.

Qld - Criminal Code Act 1899
s364A Leaving a child under 12 unattended
(1) A person who, having the lawful care or charge of a child under 12 years, leaves the child for an unreasonable time without making reasonable provision for the supervision and care of the child during that time commits a misdemeanour.
Maximum penalty—3 years imprisonment.
(2) Whether the time is unreasonable depends on all the relevant circumstances.
www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/C/CriminCode.pdf#page229

WA - Children and Community Services Act 2004
102. Leaving child unsupervised in vehicle
A person who has the care or control of a child and who leaves the child in a motor vehicle (as defined in the Road Traffic (Administration) Act 2008 section 4) without proper supervision for such period or in such circumstances that —
(a) the child becomes or is likely to become emotionally distressed; or
(b) the child’s health becomes or is likely to become permanently or temporarily impaired,
is guilty of a crime, and is liable to imprisonment for 5 years.
Summary conviction penalty: a fine of $36 000 and imprisonment for 3 years.
[Section 102 amended by No. 49 of 2010 s. 66; No. 8 of 2012 s. 54.]
www.slp.wa.gov.au/pco/prod/FileStore.nsf/Documents/MRDocument:29393P/$FILE/Children%20and%20Community%20Services%20Act%202004%20-%20%5B04-e0-00%5D.pdf?OpenElement

NSW - Children and Young Persons (Care and Protection) Act 1998
231 Leaving children and young persons unsupervised in motor vehicles
A person who leaves any child or young person in the person’s care in a motor vehicle without proper supervision for such period or in such circumstances that:
(a) the child or young person becomes or is likely to become emotionally distressed, or
(b) the child’s or young person’s health becomes or is likely to become permanently or temporarily impaired,
is guilty of an offence.
Maximum penalty: 200 penalty units.
www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/#/view/act/1998/157/chap14/sec231

Vic - Children, Youth and Families Act 2005
494. Offence to leave child unattended
(1) A person who has the control or charge of a child must not leave the child without making reasonable provision for the child's supervision and care for a time which is unreasonable having regard to all the circumstances of the case.
Penalty: 15 penalty units or imprisonment for 3 months.
(2) Proceedings for an offence under sub- section (1)—
(a) must not be brought against a person who is under 16 years of age and is not the parent of the child; and
(b) may only be brought by a person after consultation with the Secretary.
www.legislation.vic.gov.au/Domino/Web_Notes/LDMS/PubStatbook.nsf/edfb620cf7503d1aca256da4001b08af/15A4CD9FB84C7196CA2570D00022769A/$FILE/05-096a.pdf

sixandoot · 04/12/2016 11:30

*In South Australia you can be prosecuted for leaving your kids in the car at a petrol station, or if you go into a shop.

You can also be prosecuted for letting them to school alone, too young, as you can if you leave them home too young.*

Out of all of Australia's states and territories SA is one of the ones where this is the least likely to be possible. There simply is no legislation covering anything like this at all.

There is criminal legislation that is relevant only if serious harm or death results, but that's absolutely not even near the same ball park as no serious harm or death occurring while children stay in the car at the servo or while you go into a shop or a while a child walks to school alone:
Criminal Law Consolidation Act 1935
^^14—Criminal liability for neglect where death or serious harm results from unlawful act
(1) A person (the defendant) is guilty of the offence of criminal neglect if—
(a) a child or a vulnerable adult (the victim) dies or suffers serious harm as a
result of an unlawful act; and
(b) the defendant had, at the time of the act, a duty of care to the victim; and
(c) the defendant was, or ought to have been, aware that there was an appreciable risk that serious harm would be caused to the victim by the unlawful act; and
(d) the defendant failed to take steps that he or she could reasonably be expected to have taken in the circumstances to protect the victim from harm and the defendant's failure to do so was, in the circumstances, so serious that a criminal penalty is warranted.
Maximum penalty:
(a) where the victim dies—imprisonment for 15 years; or
(b) where the victim suffers serious harm—imprisonment for 5 years.
(2) If a jury considering a charge of criminal neglect against a defendant finds that—
(a) there is reasonable doubt as to the identity of the person who committed the unlawful act that caused the victim's death or serious harm; but
(b) the unlawful act can only have been the act of the defendant or some other person who, on the evidence, may have committed the unlawful act,
the jury may find the defendant guilty of the charge of criminal neglect even though of the opinion that the unlawful act may have been the act of the defendant.
(3) For the purposes of this section, the defendant has a duty of care to the victim if the defendant is a parent or guardian of the victim or has assumed responsibility for the victim's care.
(4) In this section— act includes—-
(a) an omission; and
(b) a course of conduct;
child means a person under 16 years of age;
cognitive impairment includes—
(a) a developmental disability (including, for example, an intellectual disability,
Down syndrome, cerebral palsy or an autistic spectrum disorder);
(b) an acquired disability as a result of illness or injury (including, for example, dementia, a traumatic brain injury or a neurological disorder);
(c) a mental illness;
serious harm means—
(a) harm that endangers, or is likely to endanger, a person's life; or
(b) harm that consists of, or is likely to result in, loss of, or serious and protracted impairment of, a part of the body or a physical or mental function; or
(c) harm that consists of, or is likely to result in, serious disfigurement;
unlawful—an act is unlawful if it—
(a) constitutes an offence; or
(b) would constitute an offence if committed by an adult of full legal capacity;
vulnerable adult means a person aged 16 years or above whose ability to protect himself or herself from an unlawful act is significantly impaired through physical disability, cognitive impairment, illness or infiermity.
www.legislation.sa.gov.au/LZ/C/A/CRIMINAL%20LAW%20CONSOLIDATION%20ACT%201935/CURRENT/1935.2252.UN.PDF#page29

The only other peripherally relevant legislation in SA deals with removing children from dangerous situations but it has nothing at all to do with anyone being prosecuted for anything:
^^Children's Protection Act 1993
16—Power to remove children from dangerous situations
(1) If an officer believes on reasonable grounds that a child is in a situation of serious danger and that it is necessary to remove the child from that situation in order to protect the child from harm (or further harm), the officer may remove the child from any premises or place, using such force (including breaking into premises) as is reasonably necessary for the purpose.
(1a) If—
(a) a restraining order has been made under section 99AAC of the Summary
Procedure Act 1921 preventing a person from residing with a child; and
(b) the child is residing, during the operation of the order, with the person,
the child will be taken, for the purposes of this section, to be in a situation of serious danger from which an officer is authorised to remove him or her under subsection (1).
(2) An officer's powers under this section are subject to the following limitations:
(a) a police officer below the rank of inspector may only remove a child from a situation of danger with the prior approval of a police officer of or above the rank of inspector unless he or she believes on reasonable grounds that the delay involved in seeking such an approval would prejudice the child's safety;
(b) an employee of the Department may only remove a child from the custody of a guardian with the Chief Executive's prior approval.
(3) An officer who removes a child under this section must, if possible, return the child to the child's home unless—
(a) the child is a child who is under the guardianship, or in the custody, of the Minister; or
(b) the officer is of the opinion that it would not be in the best interests of the child to return home.
(4) If an officer removes a child under this section, and the child is not returned to the child's home under subsection (3), the officer must deliver the child into the care of such person as the Chief Executive, or the Chief Executive's nominee, directs.
(5) If the Minister does not already have custody of a child who is removed from a situation of danger under this section, the Minister has custody of the child until—
(a) the end of the working day following the day on which the child was removed; or
(b) the child's return home,
(whichever is the earlier).
(6) The power to remove a child under this section is in addition to, and does not derogate from, the powers of an authorised police officer under section 51(4).
www.legislation.sa.gov.au/LZ/C/A/CHILDRENS%20PROTECTION%20ACT%201993/CURRENT/1993.93.UN.PDF#page22

StubblyLegs · 04/12/2016 17:31

So you stayed a while, to see if the parent was perhaps just returning a trolley, as the child being left alone 'didn't sit well' with you but you went off anyway, essentially ignoring the toddler left in a hot car and all you did was 'report' the incident to the supermarket customer services?!!

Why didn't you call the Police at the very least for fuck sake?!

I couldn't have happily gone about my day knowing I was at least the second person to have 'abandoned' a small child in a hot car no matter busy or in a rush I was.

You automatically put your chores on hold to help the vulnerable and defenceless in such an urgent situation, in my opinion.

Childrenofthestones · 04/12/2016 18:21

I have 30 yrs experience as a firefighter and have been to countless car fires over the years. I have to tell you that a fair portion of them were electrical fires that started after the engine was switched off, but not discovered for several minutes and yet lead to the car being gutted.
Leaving your child in a car while you go to pay for petrol and can constantly see them while doing so is safe enough, but leaving them for several minutes and upward where you cant observe them is foolhardy at best.
I don't know a single firefighter that would do it.

DoveBlue · 04/12/2016 18:27

I don't take my kids in to the petrol station to pay - carrying two wriggling toddlers (twins) would be alot more unsafe than leaving them in the car for the 2mins it takes to pay. Im sure if I got the buggy or baby carriers out to take them in I'd be the subject of an AIBU!
I would get cash out, pay for petrol, drop something off at friends house (staying at door), drop library books through their return letter box etc but I would not go into a normal shop or out of sight even if I only thought I'd be 2m. This often means I can't nip to get milk/stop on the way to/from anywhere but that's life when you have little ones!

mathanxiety · 05/12/2016 08:09

GravyandShite, when the risk has been assessed and judged serious enough to warrant a law against the practice in many parts of the world, then I am not going to second guess the wisdom of the legislators.

Risks have been similarly assessed on playgrounds and many now have recycled tyres instead of the old fashioned concrete that featured in playgrounds of my youth. Children's safety while using playgrounds has been really beefed up in many parts of the world. Children now ride bikes with helmets. They did not do this when I was a child. Some people laugh and make remarks about cotton wool, etc.

The risks involved where cars are concerned are very grave.
There is no benefit whatsoever to the child when the parent takes the risk of leaving the child unattended in the car. The only benefit is the convenience of the parent and imo that is not enough to justify taking the risk.

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