AIBU to be beyond pleased about this flu vaccine petition

[lovelyredshoes]

Finally! This is something that has really annoyed me and yet I've never other parents talking about it. FLU NASAL SPRAY VACCINES in school. It's wrong IMHO and I'm glad to see others are also feeling this way. Not flu JABS (de-activated), but nasal sprays given in schools. Anyone who has had one can be contagious - yes - contagious (it's in the medication leaflet). So if you are spraying it up the noses of school children, they could potentially infect elderly relatives or other reduced-immunity children or adults who have not been able/ have chosen not to have it. IMHO it has no place in schools - they are for education. I also find the 'state mentality' of the vaccine programme insulting. I imagine by rolling it out in schools makes parents presume it is 'okay'. Read the points of the petition. Are you being treated the same as parents in independent schools? No? Is it only state schools that should be used for 'herd' immunity with, frankly, scientifically ineffective and downright questionable drugs?

Before I'm flamed for being anti-vaccine, I assure you I am not. The Redshoes family have all had the flu jab and other vaccines at some point, although I don't do flu jabs now. Please read the reasonings on the petition because they are some of the most eloquent and clear arguments against the vaccine I have come across. Well done Justine Greening! www.change.org/p/department-of-education-secretary-of-state-justine-greening-stop-vaccination-with-the-influenza-nasal-spray-vaccine-in-our-schools?utm_medium=email&utm_source=notification&utm_campaign=signature_receipt

Our children were probably all done within 30-40 minutes. No way would you be able to get that kind of service from a Doctors surgery.

And the form is readily available online. It quite clearly shows you have to return the form to be given the spray. No way did any child get the spray without consent being given.

We're pro-vac but opted out this year for DC. By the time they roll it out the viruses have already mutated anyway. Couldn't programmes like this lead to superflu?

So you are against a scheme which has proven effective which has been in place for at least 30 plus years - all my childhood immunisations took place in school. I don't understand your reasoning behind this.

It's safe, effective, convenient, quick and gets the maximum number of children immunised, what's not to like.

Mutations don't work that way and, no, mass vaccination can't lead to superflu.

Shops as in a pharmacy within a shop eg. Boots etc.. yes there are people in there shopping but they won't be in the closed area of contact you would have in school classrooms, loos etc..

Mutations don't work that way and, no, mass vaccination can't lead to superflu.

I'd like to know more.

MrsMorton...really?
A statistically ineffective vaccine is a pretty inexpensive thing too.

So all 500 pupils from my children's school are to descend on our tiny boots, how to piss off the office workers popping in for their meal deal!

I really don't see the problem. The jabs can make you infectious too. Flu vaccines are a bit of a crap shoot every year. Sometimes nasal sprays work better, sometimes jabs do. Sometimes the scientists trying to work out which flues will dominate get it right sometimes they get it wrong. But flu kills and the vaccines, on average, work well for the population and most individuals.

I had to refuse the jabs for my kids last year because they were going to be around their immune compromised grandparents the weekend after. So long as the medical team doing the vaccinations get properly informed consent, then schools are a cost effective and convenient site to work through.

EweAreHere Gave a very succinct and on point response to a lot of your guff at 21:00, so I refer you back to that. Particularly the bit about THE NASAL LIVE VACCINE IS MORE EFFECTIVE IN CHILDREN THAN A JAB.

But additionally:

Has there been a reduction in deaths or people in hospital since flu vaccines have been rolled out?

Yes, a significant reduction. So significant that NHS trusts are given a financial incentive if they can get 80% of their staff vaccinated. This increases in increments over 80%. They put that money and, let me tell you effort (as clinical staff in the NHS, I receive a daily email/sticker/promise of coffee and muffin incentive to get my jab done) in because it has proven to be massively effective. No, I do not have data to hand but please, contact the Infection Control department at your local hospital and I'm sure they will be happy to provide it to you.

I'm open to hear it from anyone. I stopped going for the jab as it made me ill every time, and the year I had flu I'd have caught it with or witout vaccine.

Ah, the old 'flu vaccine makes you ill' bollocks. No. No it doesn't. As you yourself have pointed out many times, the strain of flu in the vaccine IS DEAD. It cannot make you ill. It cannot. It's like saying you were bitten by that dead spider over there in the corner and now you're poisoned and need medical attention. That's how daft you sound to me as someone with 17 years experience in healthcare.

Shenanagins - I'll repeat myself again. I'm against the nasal spray in schools because it is recognised as carrying a risk of spreading flu virus because it is not a deactivated virus like the jab. A small risk, but considering the number of children in schools, that is a lot of flu virus that wasn't there before the vaccination. There are a number of points stated on the petition as to why the vaccine has not been researched well enough, shouldn't be given in schools, and the benefits were overstated by the drugs companies. Unlike other childhood vaccines, the efficacy of the flu vaccine has yet to be proven. If it was a jab with the background or success of BCG or Rubella (all of which we have had) I'd be in the queue. At the doctors.

Again, just to make sure you get the BCG in the least efficient, most expensive way possible... why? Please explain precisely why you want it done at the Dr's? Fascinated to hear your evidence based reasoning.

I used to be quite flippant about the flu, not about the fact that people do die from it but the whole need to vaccinate all and sundry.

In September I had the flu. The virus attacked my heart, I called an ambulance because I couldn't breathe, by the time they arrived I was collapsed on my kitchen floor and by the time I got to hospital I was unconscious and in complete organ failure. I spent three days on life support and another two weeks in hospital. I am now on a lot of medication, have a blood clot in my heart which occurred in a&E and am facing heart surgery in the future to repair a damaged valve. And I am fit and healthy as a general rule.

No nasal spray is going to have that effect. I have never had the jab before but I will be having it this time. And if I'm told I'm not eligible then I will pay for it.

This hysteria over a bit of nasal spray being used in school has no place IMO. If you don't want your child vaccinated then don't vaccinate them. It's that simple. Bearing in mind that some children who are not vaccinated will get the flu and will be spreading the virus in its full force around the school.

Umm except you mentioned shops earlier.

Fuck me WannaBe, I had no idea. How terrifying for you. Bloody hell mate.

The flu virus is different every year and scientists work hard to try and guess what it might be for the vaccines.

Every now and then you get a strain which is particularly dangerous but then it burns out and mutates again.

How they make flu vaccines is very interesting.

Just had a re-read of the OP...

'Well done Justine Greening!'.... ?

I don't think you have actually grasped that Justine Greening is the one to whom the petition is being sent littleredshoes. She didn't write the petition. She's the MP who will be receiving the petition if it gets enough signatures.

Pardon me if that makes me somewhat doubt your ability to effectively read and process basic information...

Sorry, LOVELYredshoes

(Unfortunate gaffe, under the circs )

ElphabatheGreen: I already have looked into a number of sources and I stand by what I say and too much to go in here, particularly as you are rude enough to call another person's opinion 'guff'.
One example regarding efficacy alone from a broadsheet:There were an estimated 43,900 excess winter deaths in England and Wales in 2014-15, a 15-year high attributed partly to the lack of effectiveness of last year’s flu vaccine. The Office for National Statistics (ONS) figures show that the number of excess winter deaths was 151% higher than in 2013-14, representing the biggest yearly increase since records began.

I'm too bored now to find more - it's all out there.
With regards to you knowing my medical situation better than I do, I'm afraid I will have to refer to the opinion of two medically trained GPs and a BUPA asthma specialist who advised me on my third bad reaction that it DOES happen and advised me to not have another shot, despite this going against advice for people with asthma. The dead vaccine can cause immune response inflammation in many individuals. And everyone knows it can make you feel ill - it's regarded as a normal side effect.
But I'll remember to call them 'daft' and hope I never have to have medical advice from you!

It's AIBU - expect rude.

I would hope that both those GPs are 'medically trained'.

What is a 'BUPA asthma specialist'? The acronym at the front suggests someone who gets lots of money for repeat business.

You are being ridiculous.

One example regarding efficacy alone from a broadsheet:There were an estimated 43,900 excess winter deaths in England and Wales in 2014-15, a 15-year high attributed partly to the lack of effectiveness of last year’s flu vaccine. The Office for National Statistics (ONS) figures show that the number of excess winter deaths was 151% higher than in 2013-14, representing the biggest yearly increase since records began.

You do realise that is the exception that proves the rule, don't you? A surge in deaths the year a vaccine is comparatively ineffective shows that... surprise... the vaccines are usually rather effective. You're destroying your own argument.

who advised me on my third bad reaction that it DOES happen and advised me to not have another shot, despite this going against advice for people with asthma
OBVIOUSLY if you are someone with a now established history of reactions, with an allergy connection anyway (asthma), they're likely to tell you it's not worth it for you as an individual to keep it up after a third reaction. Particularly since allergic reactions have a tendency to get worse each time. I'm now allergic to penicillin - I didn't experience anaphylaxis, but may well do next time I'm exposed. Thus I'm going to avoid being exposed to it. That doesn't make me question how effective it was the many times I'd used it to successfully clear infections before I developed the allergy...

At least your GPs are medically trained. And being a BUPA asthma specialist clearly adds credibility. Just like peer reviewed research really.

You can't say you're bored OP, you brought the topic up, you don't like the opposition you're receiving but that's part of the rich fabric of posting on MN.

Quite frankly, your lack of ability to demonstrate decent research is boring, your inability to explain why only a doctor's surgery should administer vaccinations is tiresome.

I'm only posting to make sure that other parents don't think you're actually talking any sense. Good luck with Justine Greening and your petition

Right - I'm off to bed. I knew I would be flamed, and that's fine - we all have our own opinions and I know there are many people who don't feel comfortable about admitting not wanting the vaccine on account of the reaction it can cause from people.
If you want to sign it, sign it - if not - don't.
Wannabe, we may not agree but I respect you put across your view without being purposefully insulting to me. I also had a near death experience with swine flu, followed by pneumonia and was poorly for 8 weeks, in hospital for 2. I was flamed by the doctors and medical staff once I was coming round for not having had a flu jab and rejecting the anti-virals.
As it turned out, the jab would have been useless against the strain I had, and the anti-virals would have also been completely ineffective. So no difference to my situation at all. But I know how horrible it is and it is no laughing matter.
I am still anti nasal spray vaccine in schools, but not anti-vaccine. I am pro-choice, just don't want it given in schools and more research done.
I have no problem being flamed if it encourages people to sign the petition or do a little more objective digging into vaccines. Thanks!

I have a 4 year old who 'qualifies' for the nasal spray, and an immuno-compromised baby. I just made sure the baby got jabbed before the nasal spray was done, that's all that's needed. If (in future, for whatever reason) I wasn't able to get the baby's jab done in time before the school nasal spray, then I would refuse permission, and get both sorted out myself. You seem to suggest (I may be misinterpreting) that if DS (no health issues) didn't have the nasal spray, but then continued to attend school he would be at risk but this is incorrect, his healthy immune system would fight off the weakened live flu should one of his classmates get close enough to infect him. It's only a threat to an immuno-compromised child.