To think 335,000 extra people coming to the UK in a year is too high

[jdoe8]

Where will they all live? What jobs will they all do? I know it may help GDP, but that is irrelevant as GDP per head is the important thing.

It does seem to be race to the bottom with more part time work , uber type work and the country is borrowing more and more and the national debt is 35k per head now.

Is there any other group you would feel comfortable about dismissing as lazy and unwilling to work? How about taking that statement about not being bothered to work and applying it to Jamaicans or Mexicans or black South Africans? It's simply a racist statement, you're being racist

British isn't a race.

I saw a non-English speaking Big Issue seller yesterday - how much tax is she paying?

Big issue sellers are self employed and pay tax on their earnings.

Its not prejudice. I speak from experience and recruit people I need. A BA in the UK is very easy and short to be honest. I have a BA from a very good UK uni and a degree from a European country. The BA was easier for me than doing the equivalent of A Levels in my home country. I am sure it might be different at Oxbridge, but personally do not rate British degrees.

The British people we recruit generally speaking take longer to train, are slower and less organised and ironically often speak poorer English. They also never return after maternity leave and if they do are always sick. European women work and continue to do so after having babies fulltime so I know its safe to investest in them.

So we writing off an entire generation because we'd rather employ people from elsewhere? I don't see that as a particularly sensible long term strategy.

Its not prejudice. I speak from experience and recruit people I need. A BA in the UK is very easy and short to be honest. I have a BA from a very good UK uni and a degree from a European country. The BA was easier for me than doing the equivalent of A Levels in my home country. I am sure it might be different at Oxbridge, but personally do not rate British degrees.

The British people we recruit generally speaking take longer to train, are slower and less organised and ironically often speak poorer English. They also never return after maternity leave and if they do are always sick. European women work and continue to do so after having babies full-time so I know its safe to invests in them.

Now apart from the blatant and untrue generalising your statement begs the question just what are you doing here then if things are so bad?

The generalizations about British workers on this thread is scary

Why is it acceptable to talk about a group of people in this way? Brits may not be a race, but that doesn't mean the way you're speaking about them isn't wrong.

I am sharing my experiences from recruiting in my sector. My point is that British workers IMO just are not competitive in many industries today.

Why do you think therr are hardly any Brits working in Pret? Because they just cannot serve quickly enough with a good level of customer service. It might be uncomfortable but its true.

I have heard more than a few people who are apparently liberal and left wing say derogatory comments about working class and let's face it they mean white working class

But they are not racist or prejudice in any other way so that's ok

I thought you may have had a point up until the Pret comment - I know it's all anecdotal but based on my personal experience, it's far from a pinnacle of customer service.

All that aside, Caprianna - what are all us "uncompetitive" British workers supposed to do in order to survive in, er ..... Britain?

So you would prefer to employ European workers, instead on British ones, just based on generalisations?

I do hope you have good solicitors.

And also, if all Brits are lazy, incompetent and unemployable who did they manage to make their country so appealing?

Hear, hear Chardonnay.

The bigger picture is we are taking qualified people from poorer countries meaning their populations also suffer.

Turbinaria, it's not just qualified people who are leaving - the situation is more dire than that.

"Once thriving rural villages are now devoid of anyone under 70." www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10545458/Ghost-towns-left-by-Bulgarians-seeking-work-in-UK.html

" ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe Sat 03-Dec-16 11:18:20
I saw a non-English speaking Big Issue seller yesterday - how much tax is she paying?

Big issue sellers are self employed and pay tax on their earnings."

Actually I thought there was a complex legal issue in that. If you are self employed but do not earn much that passports your whole family in to a raft of benefits from housing benefit to tax credits which you would not get if you weren't self employed. It is the same issue on the news a few months ago about the Engilsh law who did a bit of light hair dressing from home - a kind of work lite which allows you to say you are self employed and then you get the benefits top ups. It's very hard for us legally to address this. For new immigrants once we Brexit in 2019 we could say no benefits of any kind and discriminate against those who are not British citizens at that stage. For British people we could have a minimum self employed income and if you don't earn it then you have to go out and get a full time employed job.

Chardonnay, if its my experience then its not a generalisation is it? Why would I need lawyers. I employ the most qualified candidates to do the job.

To become more competitive, you need to invest in education and in my sector language skills. I prefer candidates who have studied or worked abroad and have an international outlook. In think - and of course generally speaking - Northern and Eastern Europeans have a better work ethic and are very efficient. The Brits I have employed spend longer hours doing the same job even if they do the job well. I am not sure why that is. Schooling?

Why do you think therr are hardly any Brits working in Pret? Because they just cannot serve quickly enough with a good level of customer service. It might be uncomfortable but its true.

I don't know the stats on Pret, but there certainly seems to be a lot of european workers at Pret, particularly in London.

I imagine Brits don't lack competitiveness because they can't do the job well, I imagine it's that British workers have better opportunities and aren't willing to take jobs with such low pay.

That's true too, but if a Big issue seller is homeless, then chances are they won't be able to bring anyone here.
Many have mental health issues. I think I know the ones you mean, but honestly, I can't bring myself to get indignant about homeless people.

Ever heard of confirmation bias, Caprianna?

All your little anecdotes are worth a bit fat nothing, because you are not objective.

people who move abroad for work will often do what they can to get by as they have less outgoings it's a different mindset and they might see opportunities here or in other countries that they don't in their home country

That doesn't mean others are lazy. I worked in bars (serving) hotels (cleaning) investment banks (data entry, stuffing envelopes, faxing documents) in Australia I wouldn't look for these jobs here. often your mindset is different when working abroad as you just want money to get by have a good time or to send money home not to go towards making a nice home and settling down. Pret know this and they know they will have a high turn over of staff, employ lots of them part time no need to pay or very little towards for sick pay, pensions schemes, travel card schemes, holiday pay (at a minimum) it's not that others won't work hard it's just many jobs in the service industry don't want to employ people on proper full time contracts with benefits and good wages that rewards them for hard work with a good living wage which is fine when you are not needing that

I am a hard working EU citizen and I am the only immigrant (with a British passport though) in my team. While I am known as a very hard working person and I am appreciated for this I can't see any difference between myself and the rest of my team. If anything my manager makes me feel bad as I need to leave on time certain days of the week due to childcare and she would still be there 2 hours after 5pm doing unpaid overtime. The entire team would work through their lunch, do unpaid overtime, come in early, put in 100% effort to achieve our targets.

I think generalisation such as Brits are lazy are as annoying as "the immigrants are here to take our benefits".

Chardonnay, you are right they are my anecdotes and my experiences from my quite specific sector. Of course you can think my opinions are worth a big fat nothing, but they are worth a little because me and my team are deciding who gets the jobs we are offering

I am more than happy to employ British workers, but I cannot find the same calibre amongst them and that is reality in my sector.

You just can't see why being so biased, and you boasted about this on a post above, is so wrong?

I find the discussion whereby people complain about white working classes being denigrated; and in the same breath complain about identity politics very ironic. That is also identity politics- nothing wrong with it but own the fact you are also participating in it.

There is also a lot of weird mixing up of facts to suit your agendas. Apparently single, attached migrants only come for a few years and live in caravans in large numbers. Yet you also complain about them settling in and bringing over family members- which is it?

You complain they are unskilled/uneducated and thus a drain and yet then say the British education system means they cannot complete with migrants on skills levels. which is it?

You complain about people coming over without jobs and then complain about overseas recruitment. Which is it?

The truth is probably a whole mixture of industry specific, region specific issues, individual specific issues. So not a simple issue for simplistic solutions.

In my area there is very low unemployment and a high need for agricultural/ food production workers in semi skilled, very hard labour jobs; skilled IT workers; skilled workers in others industry like care homes and haulage. Those few locals who are unemployed are because they are older, health problems, learning disability; criminal records, and other barriers. Employers are complaining about labour shortages (though in my view are too slow to train people up)

So if the UK workers in areas of unemployment want jobs they are available in many parts of East Anglia. So why are people not internally migrating?

It is not because employers favour migrants per se because I know British people working in all of those industries and often quickly advance up the ranks from shop floor to supervisors. Not all migrants are better workers (though many European migrants are younger, fitter , have previous agricultural experience or are selected for a particular skill/qualification).

So why is it people are not internally migrating? Probably a industry training/housing/family/tradition/financial risk issue which Govt, industry and British people are going to have to address.

Capriano, to repeat Chardonnay's question, what are you doing here?

It isn't one answer or the other as that is quite clear from the thread

It's quite clear the issue is complex and there isn't one simple answer

So yes you can agruenthat education hasn't been up to the standard it should have been and also that having large numbers of unskilled eu workers keeps wages down