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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Why is it usually the woman who gives up work?

497 replies

Firedoll · 30/11/2016 10:11

I'm on mat leave and have been asked 30+ times if I'll be going back to work and, when I say yes, if I'll be part time.

My DH has never once been asked about his working hours since our DS was born.

And if I say yes I am going back to work I get "oh, will your DS go to nursery/will you get a nanny?" The idea that my DH could look after DS for some of the time while I'm at work just doesn't even enters people's heads.

I don't blame people for asking because they're just making conversation. And it seems they are making a reasonable assumption as if one of the couple is going to give up work/reduce their hours, most of the time it will be the woman. In my experience at least.

But why is this? I see so often on here people saying that their OH couldn't go part time or is the higher earner. But all the latest reports suggest women in their twenties are now out earning men so that can't be true for the majority.

Is it just a cultural thing?

OP posts:

Breadwidow · 04/12/2016 11:58

Agreed, I'm not saying women should return to work at 6 months. I'm not saying women should work full fund either. I wish I didn't have to, wish I could have had a year off but DH wasn't working so I had to. What I'm saying is that there is no biological reason why a woman should be the primary carer for a baby of more than 6 months or particularly more than 1 year old.

My daughter refused all cups til I wasn't there in the day and even then didn't have much EBM while I was at work.

buckyou · 04/12/2016 12:38

Maybe i didn't explain myself very well. While women often leave work and go part time when they have children, which IMO they always will, then in general the male work force will tend to be more senior and hence get paid more. There's nothing sexist about it IMO. Women should get paid the same for the same role etc etc but on average they will always be paid less, and should be. If everything was a level playing field then average pay should be equal but as its not, then surely men would be being penalised to achieve equal pay?? If you've not got the same demographics across men/women, how can they be expected to be paid the same?

buckyou · 04/12/2016 12:45

When people talk about equal pay do they mean that you should be able to take an average of every man and every woman who works in the UK and it be the same?

If so can someone explain to me how that would happen WITHOUT stopping mums packing in work after children?

Konyaa · 04/12/2016 12:51

Here I am - participating in a women's leadership development programme that is trying to rectify the severely disbalnaced male female ratio in Western academia, sharing my room with women who are as annoyed as I am that women disappear and hardly ever reach the top of their professions

And here is the view that - that is how it should be, and will always be.

YelloDraw · 04/12/2016 12:57

Konyaa depressing, isn't it?

buckyou · 04/12/2016 13:01

Can't someone answer my question instead of saying how depressing it is?

Genuinely interested in how folks think it should all work.

Munstermonchgirl · 04/12/2016 13:07

Buckyou- agree, women should absolutely be paid the same for doing the same job at the same level as a man, but looking at average earnings, of course women are going to be lower so long as more women tend to work fewer hours and in less senior roles.

I think attitudes are shifting, albeit not as quickly as we'd hope, but I know talking to my children and their peers (in their 20s) they certainly don't have any expectation at the moment that the females will fall behind in their careers. My eldest has just reached the point where the first among her group of friends has had a baby and she's shared parental leave with her husband and they are now both working again but see it as completely normal that nursery drop offs and pick ups are shared.

I think the extreme views on here expressed by a minority - that women are somehow programmed to be the sole carer - are exactly that: an extremist minority. Thank goodness. Most people recognise that there is more that women and men have in common than there are differences- women are just as capable of having a good career and men are just as capable of looking after children and running a house. (Unless of course you choose to partner an incompetent twit )

Breadwidow · 04/12/2016 13:10

The fact is some women do get paid less for the same role & same hours and that must stop. But I think in some ways you are right, the gender pay gap is driven by women generally always assuming the carer role for children, and thus cutting hours which in turn affects progression to senior roles. Two things I think I needed to counter this: 1 more men must do the child care / share the child care & 2 senior roles should be available for part time workers

buckyou · 04/12/2016 13:18

Good, thought i was going a bit crazy for a while there!

buckyou · 04/12/2016 13:26

But why must more men do the childcare if it's not what families want? Women shouldn't feel like they are letting the side down or being antifemanist for working part time, or not working at all.

I just wonder if we expect to 'have it all' a bit too much nowadays? We want to be able to have a year or more off for each kid and then have flexible working / part time, while still absolutely on a par paywise with people (men and women) who have been full time all along? Doesn't really seem fair!?

Konyaa · 04/12/2016 13:27

It begins at home. SIL - who firmly believes - why have children if you don't want to give up your work - explaining to her 3 year old daughter what a beautiful wife she will be, and ensuring all her gifts are babies in Prams with bottles. Buying science and engineering toys for her 5 year old son, telling him that he has to provide for his family like Daddy, and telling the 3 year old daughter the opposite. Conversations in front of me.

Very very dissimilar to conversations I had with my parents.

Daughters and sons out of these two families will by default grow up making different "choices".

Konyaa · 04/12/2016 13:29

Because what families "want" are not choices created in isolation. They are sustained and built through centuries of social conditioning.

Konyaa · 04/12/2016 13:30

Reading buckyou write is like reading the Daily Mail.

buckyou · 04/12/2016 13:37

I don't think I wanted to work part time because my mother taught me that I would make an excellent stay at home wife and mother lol. I wanted to work part time because it's a nice balance to go to work a bit and spend lots of time with my daughter.

I guess it would be nice for my husband to have a similar opportunity.. Which we've not really thougt about TBH so I guess that is ingrained in us from society. I see it as him missing out though, not me!

buckyou · 04/12/2016 13:42

Tell me then Konnya, why should I go back full time Or share my 2 days off with my partner?

NerrSnerr · 04/12/2016 13:43

What I find depressing is that on threads like this women are made to feel bad about choosing to look after their children. I agree that if it's not a choice then that needs addressing but for many like me it's what I want to do. I could work full time but I don't want to- I enjoy toddler groups and swimming lessons and want to do them, my husband is shy and it isn't for him.

There should be equal opportunity for men and women to take shared parental leave and flexible working but no one should be made to feel they have made the wrong choice or are someone letting the sisterhood down.

Minesnotahighhorse · 04/12/2016 13:48

And the prize goes to buckyou for being the first to mention "having it all"!

And it is fair to expect not to be penalised for having a child, that's why we have maternity rights enshrined in law. You act like a year out is a long time, it really is not in the grand scheme of things. The majority of people start their working life in their early twenties and retire in their sixties, a couple of years out is nothing. As I mentioned previously, length of service is no guarantee of higher earnings in today's workplace. I manage people older than me. I'm just better than them

buckyou · 04/12/2016 13:48

It's probably becasue your parents didn't bring you up right snerr.. (joke!)

Konyaa · 04/12/2016 13:54

But that's the thing buckyou - countless literature exists on the linkages between socialisation and choice, role models in childhood and later adult aspirations, parental conversations in early childhood and adolescence and choices made in later life. This is not new - the sociology of "choice" is massively complex and is tied to socialisation, parenting, their parenting etc. Any historian of work and maternity, any sociologist who works within the realm of female labour market studies will explain this. Shani Orgad's recent work on this is particularly impactful.

Munstermonchgirl · 04/12/2016 13:57

Nersnerr- Your decision for you to stay home is because you enjoy toddler groups and baby stuff more
Than your dh who happens to be shy. So what you're saying is that your decision is about personality type rather than gender. You could equally well have a couple where the dh is perfectly happy going to groups and swimming lessons and the woman isn't.
I can't see anything about gender per se which dictates that women are more suited to looking after kids and running a house and men are more suited to work.

buckyou · 04/12/2016 13:57

People don't just have a year though do they. They might have 2 kids in 5 years say, have a year off for each and be part time, so only work maybe 1/4 or a 1/3 of the equivalent full time person. It's enevetable that the full time person will (generally) pull ahead in that time, even if there's no discrimination as such. Some people will catch up but a lot won't.

Basically, I don't see why it's a problem that more women than men choose to stay at home and look after their kids.. Bit bored of saying the same thing though so I think I'll shut up now.

Konyaa · 04/12/2016 13:59

Buckyou is sounding so much like my sister in law.

buckyou · 04/12/2016 14:03

I am so not like your sister in law from your brief description.. But I'm not feeling the need to justify myself. You don't have to be rude just becasue I don't agree with you.

NerrSnerr · 04/12/2016 14:06

Yes Munster I am part time as we feel that I enjoy it more and get more out of it. Maternity leave was more gender related though. A mixture of breastfeeding (I know I could have ebf and gone back to work at 6 Months but wanted to be there through the day to do it) and the fact that pregnancy and birth was so tough on my body I wanted as much time off work as possible to recover (mentally and physically).

Konyaa · 04/12/2016 14:09

Nobody is being rude. Some people are despairing though. As someone said before it's depressing. And you will Repeat these things you've said on this thread to your daughter and son as they grow up and form aspirations and that's how things are handed down, that's how society and structures within it work. And here we are trying to rectify the damage with a leadership development programme where women have tried to work against these structures. If you think I am rude, then you haven't a clue how saddening your posts have been.

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