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Original poster

AIBU to be horrified by the Stolen Children of England

999 replies

LivingOnTheDancefloor · 29/11/2016 22:30

I just watched a French documentary called "England's stolen children" and can't believe this is happening in England. Horrifying, scary, unbelievable, it is like a horror movie...

Basically, social services are taking babies from their parents based on suspicion that abuse might happen in the future, except that the decision is made based on ridiculous things.
A lady had her three children taken from her, including a breastfed baby because she went to the ER for a child's broken ankle and they judged that he must have been beaten by his parents (only based on the ankle). X years later the parents manage to prove the fracture was due to scorbut. And they found out the initial report from the ER says "no sign of fracture".
The judge admitted they shouldn't have taken the children and the parents were innocents. But the children were given to adoption so the parents will never see them again.
That is just one of the stories.
Some women are told while pregnant that their newborn will be taken as soon as he arrives (and thzney do it).
The documentary says it is due to the facts that counties have to reach a number of children given to adoption so they target poor/uneducated parents and find any reason to take their children.
And as fostering costs money to the state they prefer adoption.

AIBU to ask if you heard about it here in the UK? And if yes, what do you think? Could it be true or are they exagerating?

I am really shaken.

www.google.fr/amp/s/researchingreform.net/2016/11/14/englands-stolen-children-controversial-new-documentary-on-forced-adoption/amp/?client=safari

Sorry, no idea how to post links, and I am on my phone

OP posts:
Natsku · 09/12/2016 17:10

Have had an initial assessment by the child psychologist and have an appointment with the child psychiatrist later this month. I think she might have ADHD which causes some issues but she also is very violent and don't know what that might be about.

haystack10 · 09/12/2016 17:21

Sorry to hear that, Natsku. It'so difficult isn't it? Know how you feel, but my ds gradually stopped that behaviour. Hopefully when you have dx you'll receive advice for the behaviour. It is a worry though, isn'it? Flowers

Spero · 09/12/2016 17:28

I went to Finland in 2015 to speak at a conference. I heard from some of the parent advocates - they seem to do things very differently there and I think we could learn much.

childprotectionresource.online/how-you-do-anything-is-how-you-do-everything-the-view-from-finland-nordic2015/

Natsku · 09/12/2016 17:30

It is. Her dad has a lot of mental health issues so it worries me that maybe she's inherited something, but she's also being through a few quite traumatic experiences in the last few years so they might be the cause. Hopefully I'll get some answers anyway and better ways to help her. But I wouldn't be getting this help without the SWs so I'll be eternally grateful to them, its very often a thankless job but they still do it. DD will also be getting a whole lot of extra Christmas presents because she's a client of them which is just a really nice touch, and we have group outings twice a year for all the families that are clients which are fun.

haystack10 · 09/12/2016 17:54

That sounds brilliant. Think Spero's right, we could certainly learn a lot there. Have to praise my health visitor who gave us a lot of help when ds was under five. He'd already been excluded from a nursery at age 4 an HV referred him to a specialist childrens centre and he went to their nursery for a year. They got his behaviour under control a bit, enough to do a little learning and socialise with peers. That wouldn't have happened without HV, makes such a difference when you have support like that.

Natsku · 09/12/2016 18:11

Proper support is so valuable. If people become scared of professionals because of scare stories like in the documentary the OP cited, then they won't take the support that's available and then families suffer.

haystack10 · 09/12/2016 19:13

I'm beginning to see that Natsku, but I'm so wary after things I witnessed 11 years ago, it really was awful. I've felt much better since communicating on here though and Spero has renewed my faith in lawyers (a little anyway). Thanks Natsku, have to go for now, take care.

Oblomov16 · 09/12/2016 19:23

I completely disagree. It's not just stories or made up stuff or paranoia.

Even if the early stages Your children are taken are you are left very powerless. They are very powerful and you are not. The later stages of adoption are slightly different.

There are tonnes of horrendous HV stories on MN. They are even referred to as 'Health Police' : HV

And mistakes? Major ones.
Anyone remember Sally Clarke? What an injustice that was!! Solicitor Who lost two babies to cot death, Sir Roy Meadow 83 million to one chance and she was jailed. even though she was a solicitor, her husband is a solicitor , her father was senior in Thames police. she had faith in the Law and it would save her and eventually she became an alcoholic and it said that that was partly due to the fact that her realisation that the law wouldn't save her, just absolutely crushed. the Sally Clark story, although my situation is not cot death related, is is very close to my heart.

I see constant comments on MN, people saying this would be a red flag to me , even on this thread, people Not engaging with HCP's would be a red flag ? Hmm Report, report, phone SS!! Hmmand I'm like oh my goodness this has swung too far to one side and people see risk when I don't think there is any. and I find this very scary.

If it can happen to Sally Clarke, if it happens as often as is reported : in my county they have 4 huge cases where children adopted for abuse, later it transpires they have unusual medical conditions that make them bruise for example.

Oh well. Never mind.
Couldn't happen to you? Right?
Think again.

OlennasWimple · 09/12/2016 19:56

I never really had faith that if I had seriously struggled when (adopted) DD came to us that the SW would have been able to help. And there were certainly things in our adoption assessment write up by our SW that were inaccurate or downright wrong that we had to challenge before the paperwork was submitted. And we liked our SW, and thought that she was one of the better ones we came across. But I firmly believe that in 99% of instances where mistakes are made, it's cock up not conspiracy

(As an aside, I didn't realise adopters were supposed to have naice spotless homes.... I'm doing that wrong... Wink)

OlennasWimple · 09/12/2016 20:00

But Oblomov - "over-zealous SWs acting on the basis of later discredited medical evidence" is a very different story to "national conspiracy to snatch healthy blue-eyed babies to fulfill adoption targets" Confused

Oblomov16 · 09/12/2016 20:06

Olenna, I never agreed with the opening statement of 'sw's snatch as many as they can' mentality. I'm not that stupid.
But there are undertones. A lot. A lot of poor procedure, serious errors of judgement, almost illegal, seriously unprofessional. Now THAT I believe. More so, I have evidence to prove in at least 3 if not 4 cases.

Oblomov16 · 09/12/2016 20:08

And even some posters said they didn't think that even that went on.
I think they are deluded.

DeepanKrispanEven · 09/12/2016 20:18

I don't think any poster has said mistakes never happen - far from it. It's repeatedly been acknowledged. So I don't think anyone is deluded.

PacificDogwod · 09/12/2016 20:47

If people become scared of professionals because of scare stories like in the documentary the OP cited, then they won't take the support that's available and then families suffer.

That.

That is the huge risk with these 'conspiracy stories' Sad

Oblomov16 · 09/12/2016 21:12

It's more than just a mistake. Some of it is deliberate, 'with intent'.

Oblomov16 · 09/12/2016 21:16

Re-reading the OP, some of it isn't 'scare stories '. Some of the cases sited are in fact real cases that have actually happened. Well documented.
How is that scare stories?
Did the documentary actually mention Hemings? Or was that just one if the first few posters assumption/presumption and conjecture?

Spero · 09/12/2016 21:40

He's in the documentary, along with Gena the woman who hosts women in caravans in France he pays for. Genas partner is a man who hospitalised her and who has been found to be sexual risk to children. And that's where Hemming sends women.

Looks like Ian Joseph also heavily involved. The man who urges parents to think very carefully before even reporting sexual abuse to 'evil' social workers.

Be careful, in your eagerness to promote tales of incompetence that you don't go too far the other way and minimise the real danger these men pose.

Oblomov16 · 09/12/2016 21:45

I already stated that JH is a tw*t. That's not in any doubt.

Spero · 09/12/2016 21:47

Good.

You will however appreciate my alarm on reading what appeared to be an attempt to re-position this 'documentary' as some sober analysis of fact.

It isn't.

TonaldDrump · 09/12/2016 22:05

What shocks me is that interim care orders are mar by magistrates. Who are unpaid lay volunteers. That just seems to be inviting problems. Having an interim care order made, even if later overturned, is traumatic for child and parent

Spero · 09/12/2016 22:19

They are assisted by a legally qualified clerk. And the parents AND the child have lawyers paid for by the state. This really isn't some kangaroo court. I was in a magistrates court today. They delivered a fair and thorough judgment.

And if they hadn't - I would have appealed.

TonaldDrump · 09/12/2016 22:37

That's not what I saw. A magistrate rubber stamped the care order. Later, once independent evidence had been gathered, especially that of mental health professionals and the guardian, the care order was discharged and the judge even rebuked the social workers in this case. But so much harm was done by the interim care order. I wouldn't want a layperson making judgements about my children's future

Spero · 09/12/2016 22:53

I assume you saw an interim care order. The test for these is lower than final care orders. Courts will err on side of protecting children. As I have repeatedly said - system isn't perfect. When more evidence is gathered, the initial decision may be overturned.

Of course this causes trauma to parents and children. But if children are not removed when they should be, they may suffer really serious harm.

It's a balance. Not always achieved. But that doesn't make the system corrupt or magistrates useless.

TonaldDrump · 09/12/2016 23:38

It was indeed an interim care order.

I am well aware my friends care was not the norm. But the fact that it happened was shocking to me. Yes, judge came down strongly on her side so maybe it's the 'system worming' but I hadn't realized that interim care orders could be made by lay magistrates. And this also comes down to the quality of social work I saw which also shook me. It was sloppy, vindictive and contradictory. I saw it, the guardian saw it, the judge saw it but not the magistrate who just rubber stamped the interim care order.

Spero · 09/12/2016 23:53

The test for an interim care order is as set out in section 38 of the Children Act. It is quite possible and lawful for an interim care order to be made and then discharged.

This is because the focus of the Children Act is on protecting children and the courts will err on the side of caution. Because if they don't, it's another potential Baby P and a tabloid monstering.

If you don't like the Children Act and the system of magistrates, you need to take it up with the politicians as they are the only ones who can change it.