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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be horrified by the Stolen Children of England

999 replies

LivingOnTheDancefloor · 29/11/2016 22:30

I just watched a French documentary called "England's stolen children" and can't believe this is happening in England. Horrifying, scary, unbelievable, it is like a horror movie...

Basically, social services are taking babies from their parents based on suspicion that abuse might happen in the future, except that the decision is made based on ridiculous things.
A lady had her three children taken from her, including a breastfed baby because she went to the ER for a child's broken ankle and they judged that he must have been beaten by his parents (only based on the ankle). X years later the parents manage to prove the fracture was due to scorbut. And they found out the initial report from the ER says "no sign of fracture".
The judge admitted they shouldn't have taken the children and the parents were innocents. But the children were given to adoption so the parents will never see them again.
That is just one of the stories.
Some women are told while pregnant that their newborn will be taken as soon as he arrives (and thzney do it).
The documentary says it is due to the facts that counties have to reach a number of children given to adoption so they target poor/uneducated parents and find any reason to take their children.
And as fostering costs money to the state they prefer adoption.

AIBU to ask if you heard about it here in the UK? And if yes, what do you think? Could it be true or are they exagerating?

I am really shaken.

www.google.fr/amp/s/researchingreform.net/2016/11/14/englands-stolen-children-controversial-new-documentary-on-forced-adoption/amp/?client=safari

Sorry, no idea how to post links, and I am on my phone

OP posts:
OlennasWimple · 09/12/2016 02:47

Needs - one of those floating ones that won't go away...?

Don't know about your TIO view - it's showing up fine for me, sorry

DarkNanny · 09/12/2016 03:09

I read the thread ... im naturally suspicious I think there is a lot more underneath than we care to see.

Oblomov16 · 09/12/2016 05:25

Yes, I am awake at this ungodly hour!

Magic Changes posted this:

"I'm 7 years retired so I don't know what goes on in court but I simply don't believe that social workers or other professionals deliberately lie and falsify reports. I know there was a recent case that Spero mentioned where reports were falsified - I think it was a clinical psychologist who reported verbatim what had been said by the parent, whereas it was revealed that she hadn't in fact made these statements. It was a bit odd as he was if I recall correctly a very experienced professional but I can't hazard a guess why he would behave in such an unacceptable way"

This made me very sad. To read someone not believing that these basic things go on.

I know someone similar to Magic changes. A retired SW, their whole career worked for SS, previously head of Adoption Team, then Area Manager - so would review all the Work of the Chairs of Child Protection Conferences.

He was saddened in the decline of things in the last 7 years.

Lots of basic mistakes. But also major lies.
Similar evidence as Magic changes and Spero referred to ( I must have missed that link) could someone please re-link?

Similar cases: Educational psychologist giving a verbatim report of a conversation with mother.
Turned out that mother never attended such a meeting, because on the day in question she was abroad, at a work conference, in Paris!!

(And no, this wasn't me, unfortunately I haven't been to Paris for years!!)

But other files and cases, major mistakes. People deliberately phoning up, on purpose, giving false information that is basically 'perverting the course of justice'.

Once a data request was later done (but it's too late by then!!) on another family: A HeadMaster at the CPC, at the professionals meeting held prior to the parents attending the CPC) claiming that mother was unreliable, abusive, possibly lying. All professionals agreed mother was not to be trusted. He said the mother had previously claimed the child had leukaemia.
This was later proved completely untrue. Mother had never such thing. She was supported by her GP and the child's Paed. But that idea that mother was lying, meant that it took 9 months for her to get her 4 children returned to her.
But it set the tone of the whole case. Those kind of things are very damaging.

On a total different issue, not SS related:
My friends mother went into hospital with a minor issue hernia/ ruptured something. Before you knew it she had her teeth removed, no food, and her 4 daughters, asked to sign forms. But later it transpired that underneath the forms 2 of them had signed, were other forms, for the Liverpool pathway. They unknowingly had signed forms for their mum to be ....., killed, basically, whilst reasonably heathy. Took 5 years in a court case to get the death certificate changed.

Surely none of you are naieve enough to think that these things go on?

People cover their tracks. Lying and falsifying of documents goes on. Some partly accidentally. Sine are genuine mistakes, recording things incorrectly. Some so definitely, clearly done on purpose, one does wonder what theses people's motivations are.
Sure does mystify Me!!
I can't believe anyone thinks it doesn't go on.

sashh · 09/12/2016 06:02

What im trying to say is yes kids should be taken away if in danger but they should be fostered rather than adopted

Because adoption gives stability, it gives a family for life, not a 16 year old living in a flat on their own.

And fostering can have limitations such as not cutting a child's hair without parental permission.

A poster on MN once told of going on holiday to Florida and having to leave their foster child in care. The family holiday was booked before the foster child arrived, the family wanted to take the foster child, the child wanted to go, the social workers thought it would be a good idea but the birth parent did not want the child to leave the country or have a passport.

Spero · 09/12/2016 07:18

Here is the case about Ben Harper, who made up quotes in his report
www.familylawweek.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed162525

I am not saying that professionals never lie or cover their tracks or behave dishonourably.
I am saying it is NOT commonplace and the majority of professionals in the child protection field do their best in often very difficult circumstances.
i am saying there is NO credible evidence to support the claims of the documentary makers.
If there was any credible evidence, as other posters have pointed out, Hemming WHILE AN MP could have found that evidence.

What he did - and have a read of the three massive late 2013 threads about the 'forced C section case' which finally coalesced our opposition to Hemming and lead to the creation of the CPR and my now fully fledged position as activist in this field - was pass around spreadsheets with figures that he had filled in himself with no attempt to explain the source of those figures. So they were dismissed.

The Transparency Project then spent A YEAR unpaid, making and analysing responses from every LA in England and Wales in order to try and see if there was any truth in his often repeated assertion that LA operated to targets to steal children. The results of those FOI did NOT support his allegations, but they did provide a worrying sense that 'targets' and 'key performance indictors' could - at the very least - risk corruption of decisions made about children at an early stage of proceedings, or even before they started.

this is serious and needs more investigation. I am very disappointed at the response so far to the TP work - there hasn't been much 'official' response. One very short and bland statement from the Association of Directors of Children's Services and that's about it. If you want to read the post, it's here. www.transparencyproject.org.uk/english-councils-confirm-they-set-targets-for-the-number-of-children-to-be-adopted/

Alice Twaite deserves high praise for the work she did. Hemming could have paid someone to do this in a few weeks. He didn't. I wonder why not?

It's a sad and consistent feature of this debate that some people use it as a vehicle to air their own grievances or fragile personalities. Rather than be interested in what is actually going on and try to drill down to the very heart of it, it often degenerates into sniping and personal attacks.

And yes, conniver - this time I really am directly referencing you.

Here's the thing. I haven't been on mumsnet for about a year. I've been busy, as you can see. I was alerted to this thread by someone on Facebook. If I was motivated by wanting 'deference' as you seem to think, it seems rather odd that I would stay away for so long don't you think?

I am very grateful for the kind remarks and praise some people have given me on this thread. Of course I like it. But I do not do what I do to get praise or validation from others. I do it because I think it is important and I find it interesting. For every kind comment on this thread I have about 20 other comments on line calling me an ugly Nazi bitch, a corrupt 'legal aid loser', etc, etc, etc. For the first time, in October this year, I had to go to the police because of what someone sent directly to my Chambers. For the first time, I was frightened.

So no, I am not doing this to get your 'deference'. If you don't agree with me - say so and say why. But do NOT attempt to derail or deflect what I am saying and expect no reaction from me.

This debate really is far too important and for FAR TOO LONG it has been hijacked by idiots and worse. No more. The consequences of this are terrible.

HerRoyalFattyness · 09/12/2016 07:34

spero I for one applaud the work you and others are doing.

Oblomov16 · 09/12/2016 07:49

Spero, I do too.

Spero · 09/12/2016 07:51

Thanks HerRoyal! You will just have to picture me squealing with delight at your deference.

For those who 'just can't believe' social workers would ever deliberately lie - I am afraid there is evidence they do sometimes
suesspiciousminds.com/2015/11/23/social-workers-slammed-for-lying-on-oath/

But just as Dr Shipman is hopefully representative of a minority of doctors and Fred West a minority of fathers, these social workers and experts who have failed to meet even minimum standards of competence and decency are not the norm.

the problem is their failures are so significant and so damaging that they have a massive impact - on the people they hurt immediately and as a ripple effect on trust and confidence in the system as a whole.

So we don't do the debate any favours by shutting our eyes to this. But we equally don't do vulnerable parents any favours by claiming that their blue eyed babies are being eyed up for snatching.

Oblomov16 · 09/12/2016 07:52

And Spero, Thank you for the Dr Ben Harper link.
I enjoyed reading it very much.
Similar, but not nearly as bad, happened to me. And I too had proof. Oh dear!! Grin
I'm still working on my case. I'll never give up. Ever.

HerRoyalFattyness · 09/12/2016 08:02

Nowhere near as serious but I had a health visitor lie about me. A referral was made for my DD to have a hearing test, despite me protesting that there was nothing wrong with her hearing. "It's best just to be safe"
OK, I think, DS1 has glue.ear, perhaps that's why.
Got to the clinic and they said "so you have concerns about her hearing"
"No, none at all. I thought perhaps this referral was due to her brother having glue ear"
"That's not a reason for referral"

This same health visitor also tried to say I needed extra.support and visits because I was unsure how to handle a baby. He was my 3rd, and I have my level 2 in childcare (currently doing my level 3). She didn't realise that. She would turn up unannounced etc. I complained and now have a lovely new HV who says I'm doing absolutely fine and she can't understand why the last one was so concerned.

Maybe I'm just lucky my children have brown hair. We all know if they had blonde hair then they'd have phoned SS Hmm

Seriously though, professionals can and do lie. Sometimes for no apparent reason. I got the feeling that particular HV didn't like me from the start, but I could be wrong.

That's not to say absolutely every HV in the UK is corrupt and working with SS to steal babies.

WouldHave · 09/12/2016 08:03

I read the thread ... im naturally suspicious I think there is a lot more underneath than we care to see.

But do you actually have evidence, DarkNanny, or does your information from a cursory reading of the Mail and the more rabid sections of Google?

haystack10 · 09/12/2016 08:13

I'm not really well educated so half of last night's discussion went over my head but even I could see that someone was having a go at Spero. I didn't like that at all because 1) I feel Spero does such good work. 2) purely selfishly I was afraid Spero would disappear and what she has been saying recently has meant a lot to me personally

PacificDogwod · 09/12/2016 08:14

spero Thanks

HCP/SW/lawyers are human beings, just like plumbers/office workers/any other person in any other job.
Of course there will be some more competent or honest or hardworking than others, some will be downright dangerous.
Nobody in their right mind would deny that - and yes, people in any kind of position of power over other people must be held to a higher standard of professional behaviour than your average butcher/baker/candlestick maker.

What makes me shake my head with incredulity and give me a feeling of sick frustration is the hysterical allegation of organised and systemic child snatching when there is NO EVIDENCE that this is happening, none.

I suppose it is a more exciting narrative than 'well-meaning people working hard within a very overstretched service do the best they can. Which is sometimes not very good at all'.

I think there IS an issue with the system not being very transparent or easy to understand for everybody and it can seem overwhelming to navigate. So there is work to be done there.
I cannot help but wonder whether some of the more rabid stories are a bit of a distraction and a smoke screen Hmm

haystack10 · 09/12/2016 08:37

I did understand one thing though and it saddens me, that there is a divide between parents and professionals. I've said before I remember the days when SW's visited and would sit and have a cup of tea and chat. Sounds simplistic and silly probably, but raising children and asking for help without any fear was lovely. You didn't even have to clean house, they just took you as you were. I sound like an old fool!Blush

quaidorsay · 09/12/2016 09:20

Spero has said she has come out of her silo and that alone is superb, and it is superb that she and the other lawyers involved in the project are doing this work. It doesn't matter to me that I don't agree with every bit of analysis - the work as a whole is superb.

But to be fair and equal about this, although most of the posts last night were difficult to follow,, the post from conniver at 22:28:18 was a bit clearer and did also raise important points.

My experience of corruption/incompetence was via work not personal experience (other the social worker who is a relation) and yes I do think there is more to come and that only good will come of all the work being done now.

As well as the research, evidence, personal experiences referred to in this thread, there are also subjective perceptions prevailing in relation to child protection - eg adoption vs keeping children with bio parents - whether a naice and pristine home is going to be better than the love of the biologicial parents, even if the biological parents need help. It is worth everyone recognising their silo and coming out and listening more to others! Without personal attack, as all that does is close discussion down.

By the way - I have only managed to watch 20 mins of the doc (because it is quite depressing) and so far there are no conspiracies. Families and a UK social worker with 40 or so years of experience have been interviewed. The legal framework to do with future harm has been reviewed (I don't think the same framework exists in France?). An actual social work report in relation to one couple has been featured - in English so a lot of it can be read in the background on the screen. Thatcher has been referred to, saying that she privatised various industries and effectlvely closed down help for vulnerable communities (not that she was liberal). So so far, no conspiracy. I am going to try to force myself to watch the rest.

NeedsAsockamnesty · 09/12/2016 10:27

I read the thread ... im naturally suspicious I think there is a lot more underneath than we care to see

There is a lot underneath that we either don't care to see or wish to pretend doesn't exist cant exist or if we realise it does a fair few of us like to minimise.

It is my belief that by doing so we open the door to mistrust and we open the door leaving wide open space for consprisy nuts to misuse the information to further their adjenda because if the very people who should see the issues don't and do not do their bit to challenge and change,it means that the likes of Ian Joseph have a platform and a weapon.

haystack10 · 09/12/2016 12:32

Personal reminiscences again, sorry. Health visitors and midwives in the seventies (when my first child was born) used to tell mums not to bother cleaning up, they were there just to see you and your baby. This meant you could relax, sleep when the baby slept, feed and change when they woke and not worry. Incidentally, my first child, born in the seventies spent his first 6 weeks in a wash basket padded with sheets because we couldn't afford a crib, we only had the big cot which he looked lost inSmile Nothing was made of it at all and the midwives and health visitors used to comment how snug he looked. Can you imagine that nowadays?

Spero · 09/12/2016 12:57

haystack, you certainly don't sound like an old fool.

You describe the very essence of what we have lost. It is so sad for us all.

But I can't see things getting any better any time soon. We seem to be totally lost in a political and social narrative that profit is everything and if you are poor or struggling this indicates some moral blame on your part.

Listened to a very interesting podcast from Invisibilia on learning cultures on (long) drive to Barnstaple today in further efforts at silo busting. So very interesting - accident rates on oil rig decreased by 84% and productivity soared when the company invested in a 'learning culture' and people were allowed to express uncertainty and ask for help.

At the moment we operate most decidedly in a culture of blame - when anything goes wrong, people want heads on a plate. That's why no lessons are ever learned. People can't learn if they are frightened and trying to hide when they screw up.

www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2016/06/17/482203447/invisibilia-how-learning-to-be-vulnerable-can-make-life-safer

Natsku · 09/12/2016 13:03

I've said before I remember the days when SW's visited and would sit and have a cup of tea and chat

That's what DD's SWs do, we have a lovely chat every time, then she and DD usually paint each other's nails. I know SWs are overworked here but perhaps not as overworked as in the UK so they have more time for that.

Newborns sleep in boxes here Haystack Grin

haystack10 · 09/12/2016 15:24

Thanks for that Spero, had to wipe a tear at the endSmile very interesting how one person changed the men and achieved those results.

haystack10 · 09/12/2016 15:42

Natsku, where are you? Sorry I know you've already said before. Baby in a boxGrin as long as it's padded and snug and mum's voice (or dad's) in the background, baby's happySmile

haystack10 · 09/12/2016 15:46

Natsku it's great that your SW is like that, especially for your dd. Do you feel that you can discuss any problems with her if you need to?

Natsku · 09/12/2016 15:59

I'm in Finland, in a small town, might be very different in the cities.

Yeah I do feel like that, have discussed lots of issues, especially about my ex and also how I'm really struggling with DD's behaviour - the SWs were able to get DD referred for assessment under child psychiatric services which I wouldn't have been able to do myself because her dad refused consent (SWs were able to override his lack of consent, otherwise I'd have had to go to court and it would have taken too much time) after I told them how difficult I was finding it.

tldr · 09/12/2016 16:17

What haystack describes is exactly how SW visits were for me after my (adopted) DC were placed.

What a shame it doesn't happen like that on the flip side.

haystack10 · 09/12/2016 16:46

Have you had assessment yet? Hope all is well. I know about difficult behaviours, one of my son's has autism. He's doing well though, has his own flat in a supported living block. He likes to be independent with no-one interfering, meaning meSmile Just wish he'd clean up more !