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Original poster

AIBU to be horrified by the Stolen Children of England

999 replies

LivingOnTheDancefloor · 29/11/2016 22:30

I just watched a French documentary called "England's stolen children" and can't believe this is happening in England. Horrifying, scary, unbelievable, it is like a horror movie...

Basically, social services are taking babies from their parents based on suspicion that abuse might happen in the future, except that the decision is made based on ridiculous things.
A lady had her three children taken from her, including a breastfed baby because she went to the ER for a child's broken ankle and they judged that he must have been beaten by his parents (only based on the ankle). X years later the parents manage to prove the fracture was due to scorbut. And they found out the initial report from the ER says "no sign of fracture".
The judge admitted they shouldn't have taken the children and the parents were innocents. But the children were given to adoption so the parents will never see them again.
That is just one of the stories.
Some women are told while pregnant that their newborn will be taken as soon as he arrives (and thzney do it).
The documentary says it is due to the facts that counties have to reach a number of children given to adoption so they target poor/uneducated parents and find any reason to take their children.
And as fostering costs money to the state they prefer adoption.

AIBU to ask if you heard about it here in the UK? And if yes, what do you think? Could it be true or are they exagerating?

I am really shaken.

www.google.fr/amp/s/researchingreform.net/2016/11/14/englands-stolen-children-controversial-new-documentary-on-forced-adoption/amp/?client=safari

Sorry, no idea how to post links, and I am on my phone

OP posts:
heythereconniver · 06/12/2016 19:19

All parents are given access to reports and assessments though so it's pretty much impossible to say one thing to parents but write something completely different in reports

Plenty of parents aren't aware of this or don't have the literacy skills in English etc. to understand the terms used or the implications of what is being said. I'm sure it is obvious which parents will fall into that category. They need an advocate.

Natsku · 06/12/2016 19:24

And that's why they have lawyers for family court proceedings hey all parents get legal aid for it so their lawyers can read the documents and challenge them if necessary. But I would advise any parent going through investigations to find someone they trust to read over documents with them from the beginning. I've been through investigations in a different country so had to read documents that weren't in my native language - having someone who knew the language to read through it helped a lot, would be the same for a parent who doesn't have the literacy skills in English.

BratFarrarsPony · 06/12/2016 19:29

" All parents are given access to reports and assessments though so it's pretty much impossible to say one thing to parents but write something completely different in reports "

as I mentioned before, when I had SS involvement , access to reports was sometimes the night before a meeting, or sometimes weeks later, or sometimes not at all.
I have a degree in English and a teaching qualification. fwiw.

UnbornMortificado · 06/12/2016 19:29

Needs I didn't look at it that way I hope your right.

heythereconniver · 06/12/2016 19:32

Does a lawyer provided by the courts really have the time and inclination to go through the minutiae of the reports? Would the parents remember as this would be reading everything in one go at the end, as it were? After reading the reports themselves, would the lawyer be inclined to challenge repeatedly to arrive at something that is possibly quite different to the reports - wouldn't they be influenced?

Oblomov16 · 06/12/2016 19:35

Unborn, or anyone else, please do link, I love a good TAAT ! Wink

heythereconniver · 06/12/2016 19:35

And wouldn't other professionals have contributed to the reports after talking to social workers who would have been referring to their notes and possibly influencing the views of their colleagues? Wouldn't it look as if the parents had to be wrong because they had no evidence of being right and there were so many things against them? A poster on another thread described how she was described as 'socially isolated' and was questioned if she could clothe her baby adequately on no basis - but that would have gone in the report. How could she have challenged a string of observations like that some time afterwards in a court context?

BratFarrarsPony · 06/12/2016 19:44

exactly conniver..that is how it is.
I was also described as 'socially isolated' - quite damning it seems.
SW can and do really ham it up in their reports.
For example when they came to my house, someone had forgotten to flush the loo - it happens right?
'Faeces in the toilet bowl' was in the report! I actually couldnt believe it! I mean where else would faeces be? if it was anywhere else, then that would be worthy of report !

Natsku · 06/12/2016 20:01

Its always the luck of the draw with lawyers - are people allowed to choose their legal aid lawyer in the UK? I was allowed to choose any lawyer, whether they worked for the legal aid office or were private (but private ones would only be reimbursed up to the same amount as legal aid lawyers). My current legal aid lawyer is the shit, and goes through the papers thoroughly and notes everything. Ex's private fancy lawyer, recommended by father's rights groups was terrible, an old drunk who didn't even turn up to court in the end.

NeedsAsockamnesty · 06/12/2016 20:18

as I mentioned before, when I had SS involvement , access to reports was sometimes the night before a meeting, or sometimes weeks later, or sometimes not at all
I have a degree in English and a teaching qualification. fwiw

This is something a lot of my clients experance and appears to be quite routine which is a huge shame

WouldHave · 06/12/2016 20:22

Lawyers are not provided by the courts and yes, people can choose their legal aid lawyer. However, not every firm working in this field offers legal aid.

I used to work in a medium sized firm that had a department specialising in child care work. They only ever represented parents or children, and when they represented children they would be appointed by the guardian ad litem, who is an independent person there to represent the child's interests. In the firm I was with every member of that department was very dedicated and used to work long hours regularly, so would certainly go through the minutiae of the evidence very carefully and think outside the box in terms of things like getting witnesses and other evidence to support the parents. I recognise that not necessarily every firm would work that way, and the constant constraints on legal aid cannot be helping, but generally I have the impression that most lawyers in the field do want to do their best for children and parents.

NeedsAsockamnesty · 06/12/2016 20:27

Does a lawyer provided by the courts really have the time and inclination to go through the minutiae of the reports? Would the parents remember as this would be reading everything in one go at the end, as it were? After reading the reports themselves, would the lawyer be inclined to challenge repeatedly to arrive at something that is possibly quite different to the reports - wouldn't they be influenced?

It often is the luck of the draw. However the parents chose their own solisiter within the boundries of their ability to do so.

For example in the area I mainly work only 2 firms do any legal aid work (legal aid is what we call the funding that pays for them) they may or may not be able to fit you in,one of them practises a wait list both are firms I personally would never use because I don't really rate them but they are the option.
Some parents are not in a position to travel to seek an alternative and others may only realise they need one with not enough time to find one.

You are not entitled to the legal aid (unless something has changed) until such time as you get a notification from the LA saying you need it because they are holding a threshold meeting or an emergency order is being applied for so it's not something you can be proactive with unless you have the means to do so and if you do and they are willing to attend conferences with you they have no legal standing there so no right to act for you prior to threshold

quaidorsay · 06/12/2016 20:43

Spero do the leaflets have links to your online resources, how to get a solicitor, details of organisations who might be able to provide help and support? Could they not be given out by SWs as soon as an investigation is started? It sounds amazing. I thought that it was hard to find a solicitor in some areas, though, as they are all so busy.

In relation to the misinformation going into reports, as someone has said if you have the confidence, the savvy, the solicitor to obtain reports and challenge then that is fine, so being aware of what help is available is so important.

quaidorsay · 06/12/2016 20:48

Needsa, my post crossed with yours so that answers my question about solicitors. I remember a thread where someone had said they were concerned about SW reports but because they could afford a decent lawyer to step in quickly it came to nothing.

BratFarrarsPony · 06/12/2016 20:52

" I remember a thread where someone had said they were concerned about SW reports but because they could afford a decent lawyer to step in quickly it came to nothing. "

well that doesnt sound right, you are not entitled to have a lawyer speak for you at eg CP meetings.

PoldarksBreeches · 06/12/2016 21:05

I have a client at the moment who keeps paying a lawyer to write to me asking questions about his assessment. I happily answer them but I'd answer them just as happily if he asked me himself. The lawyer isn't achieving anything he couldn't achieve himself (he's educated and articulate) Having a lawyer go through your assessment or CP reports won't necessarily get anything altered, unless the social worker is acting outside of the law (I'm not)

BratFarrarsPony · 06/12/2016 21:06

exactly Poldarks - waste of money and time.

quaidorsay · 06/12/2016 21:16

I don't remember exactly, but I think the lawyer had asked for reports and challenged the contents, it had not reached CP meeting stage, and didn't. This was just a thread though, and it was a while ago.

But thinking about it, surely it is at CP meeting stage or thereabouts that solicitor involvement would be useful? What is the reasoning behind legal representation not being permitted?

Poldark, does the lawyer not know the right questions to ask? And possibly the client is too overwhelmed?

Spero · 06/12/2016 21:16

quaidorsy - re the leaflets, at the moment we just have the contact details for the Family Rights Group as I don't want this to be seen as some kind of publicity for my website. But if people think the CPR site would be a useful add on, I will include it.

It's quite hard to get the balance right between providing enough information and not overwhelming people - but its been drafted by two parents and they say it would have really helped them if they could have had something like that right at the beginning.

Hopefully we will sort out a trial soon and I will let you know the feedback.

BratFarrarsPony · 06/12/2016 21:18

quaidorsay - a person is not permitted to have a lawyer speak for them at the stage of assessment or at the CP stage. Even if the SW has exaggerated. Why don't you listen, I have been through it.

quaidorsay · 06/12/2016 21:26

bratfarrarspony, I did listen, and I asked why - why are they not permitted?

spero, it sounds as though your cpr has been incredibly useful, judging by comments on this thread, I would imagine they would say yes include it!

BratFarrarsPony · 06/12/2016 21:28

oh sorry, I was reading. too quickly...
I do not know why they are not permitted - in fact nobody is allowed to speak for the parent.
This was not too much of a problem for me because I am educated and reasonably eloquent. For some people it is a massive problem.

SantaPleaseBringMeEwanMcGregor · 06/12/2016 21:56

"Documentary."

haystack10 · 07/12/2016 05:56

I just don't Atrocities- accept they happen, discuss it. Abuse- accept it happens, discuss it. Discrimination- accept it happens, discuss. Authority victimisation- no, no, no, no. This. Just. Does. Not. Happen.