having read the whole thread about tipping, i have an anecdote to add.....

[rabbitwoman]

I have not posted a lot on mumnset, but having read the whole of the most recent thread on tipping, and finding the complete polarisation of opinions about it interesting, i thought i would start a new thread with an illustrative anecdote and see what you think of that?

Me and my husband went for a lovely meal, about two months ago - the waiter was someone we vaguely knew, a friend or a friend's brother type of scenario and he was perfectly nice. Took our order, brought our drinks, brought our food, brought our bill - visited our table a total of six times, in the course of about an hour and fifteen minutes. When i dine out, i usually have some kind of discount voucher or special offer - i have a tastecard - so get a good discount off a meal, on this occasion about £18, so was happy to leave our waiter a cash tip of £5. No problem. This is what usually happens, and seems standard. Sometimes, i don't tip. Sometimes, I leave a pound. Depends.

Anyway, my husband works in retail. Zero hours contract, minimum wage, part time. He works in a shop selling high end technical equipment. A few days after our lovely meal, who should come into my husband's shop but our waiter! Remember, someone we vaguely know. And my husband serves him.

Waiter has a phone of a make that the shop doesn't even sell, but there is a bit of a problem with the software. Someone has recommended that our waiter visit my husband because my husband is, frankly, a genius with a good reputation. So my husband takes a look, says to our waiter, no problem, give me twenty minutes, go off and do your shopping and when you come back i will have fixed it.

So off our waiter goes. My husband does some google research on the problem, downloads a software fix, uploads it onto the phone, and returns it to the waiter in good working order. Thank you, says the waiter, and leaves.

Let me just reiterate, my husband has done this FOR FREE. Did not take payment - not unusual, he would do this for anyone and believes that it builds trust and wins return custom, he always does this. So, we gave our waiter £5 for maybe a 3 minutes of serving us. My husband then fixes his phone FOR FREE and does not get a tip. The waiter did not even buy anything!

Don't feel sorry for us, by the way, we are not JAMs just because my husband is on minimum wage, zero hours, etc; i bought my flat before house prices went crazy, we are child free and therefore, as far as we are concerned, semi retired and getting by very well, thank you.

My husband has a lot of hobbies and interests outside work which he has a lot of time to concentrate on so is perfectly happy with his job. He ALWAYS goes above and beyond for customers; things he has done includes a full forensic data recovery on a water damaged laptop - for free - helping customers with their CVs and court cases, teaching them photoshop and building websites - sometimes he gets a bottle of wine or a box of chocolates, very much appreciated, lots of thank you cards, but its not expected, or very often, or from every customer. He did not, by the way, mind at all that our waiter had not given him anything. Did not expect it. Lots of customers don't tip him, it is a lovely surprise when they do.

I just wanted to see what people thought of that? Why social convention dictates that we give our waiter £5 for doing his job, but our waiter gives my husband nothing, for going well above and beyond? Interesting, especially as noone was able to explain why some service providers automatically get tips and some don't?

I am finding it really hard to understand your husband's habit of doing people favours when he could be charging for his work.

Maybe he is just a generous and kind person and maybe this is an alien concept to you. Mathanxiety

I got the impression that the OPs DH worked in a shop for someone else, so doesn't get to make his own decisions about when to charge or how much.

He probably doesn't want to set up his own business due to cost/risk etc, especially as he has already found that people generally don't want to pay for services, especially from friends. If he had his own electronics repair business, there would be an awful lot of people expecting 'mates rates' without considering that it is his livelihood on the line.

Because it is nearly full.....

it's not

Just tip. It's the way things are done

No, it isn't. If it was, we wouldn't have threads like this.

Maybe he is just a generous and kind person and maybe this is an alien concept to you. Mathanxiety

TrickyD -no need to be so snarky in reply to a very valid point. The business is not a charity after all!

I'd be worried that the business will go under with that sort of business model; which would leave the OP's -no matter how kind& generous, out of a job.

Just tip. It's the way things are done

Or maybe it's now an outdated concept and the way things are done should change, hence this is a valid discussion. The fact that so many people don't tip, suggests that maybe we are ready for change now that the minimum wage is in place, and many people get paid this amount of money, not just waiters.

It used to be 'the way things are done' to overtly pay men more than women for doing the same job.

It used to be 'the way things are done' that people worked 6 or 7 long days a week with hardly any days off or paid holidays.

It used to be 'the way things are done' to send children down coal mines or up chimneys.

It used to be 'the way things are done' to post pieces of paper into machines for them to be printed out in other locations. When was the last time anyone sent a fax?

Things changed and custom and practice can become outdated.

Thank you everyone who has responded and added to what i think is a very interesting and pertinent discussion. I have really enjoyed reading through the your replies; although my post was to point out the general unfairness and irony of us tipping a waiter to do their job, and then that same waiter not tipping my husband for doing his job, and how that surely highlights a big gaping problem with the culture of gratuities, this thread seems to have brought up the issue of my husbands working practises.

to clarify, then, the shop that he works for is a national chain with a call centre based at their head office. A lot of calls for technical support go through to there, and they often specifically direct customers to my husband because of his superb reputation - he has had customers travel many miles to visit him in his shop based on the recommendation of the head office, who are obviously happy with the arrangement for my husband to perform the repair/ service without charge. It is not up to him to question this. he is,after all, just a shop assistant, employed and paid as such, like any other shop assistant in the place. however, he has developed these skills, mostly self taught, over the years and loves to see customers happy. He provides a brilliant service, and very much above and beyond the duties he is paid for in many cases. In the case of the full forensic data recovery, for example, the customer in question had already spent several thousands on new equipment to replace her damaged computer, but was devastated that pictures of her family going back many years has been lost. my husband was able to help - he didn't have to, it was time consuming and fiddly, but he was happy to help and the customer was delighted.

in the specific example of the waiter, turns out that he had been in the day before when DH was not working, and been told to return the next day to speak to my DH by my DH's colleagues. a discussion about liability did take place, as it always does, but again, as i was discussing the practise of tipping it did not seem pertinent to that issue. some of you may think that is daft, a silly way to conduct business, that my husband could be sacked for doing it, that it will drive his shop out of business ....... i think it is really kind, thoughtful customer service which encourages loyalty, trust and return custom. But it doesn't really matter what i think, or any of you, as long as my husband's employers are fine with it, which they are, and have been for many years without going out of business.

Apologies if this seems to be drip feeding, but i did not think it necessarily relevant to the original issue of tipping, and did not anticipate that this would be the main focus of so much of the response.

I very much feel that this did merit a thread of its own, rather than mentioning it on a thread that was along the same lines, on the same theme, but ultimately asking a different question. the specific example i gave highlighted the unfairness and inequality of the practise altogether, i thought, and had i raised it on a different thread i thought it would either a) be skipped over and forgotten rather than discussed as the previous thread seemed very busy, or nearly full, as i said earlier or b) highjack someone else's thread.

Of course my husband is is woefully underpaid by his employers, but so are many many people who do valuable and often unpleasant jobs. Waiting tables is just one of those woefully underpaid jobs and yet we are conditioned into supplementing those wages, and not others? Retailers often make it company policy that their staff cannot accept tips - so why can't more restaurants do the same? wouldn't we all be happier and less socially confused!? wouldn't that then address some of this inequality?

This is obviously an issue that people feel passionate about - some posters said they would no longer be friends with or date someone who did not leave a tip in restaurants, or at least never dine with them again, others became quite angry and defensive. maybe it really is time for a bit of a shake up?

Thank you everyone for your input! xx

I was on the other thread OP and I agree with you. I don't think this is a thread about that because it's about a different scenario. This thread seems more balance, maybe because anecdotes are helpful in perception? I don't know, but it seems to be.

I don't agree with tipping for services that are carried out in accordance with the job people are paid for. I absolutely believe in tipping for excellence and I've never deviated from that. I would pay your husband a tip and I'd do it quietly and generously and he'd know that I appreciated what he did for me. That's how it works in my book.

I posted on that thread about bin men too - if they take additional and side waste when your council has a policy against it then that's theft because a) the bin men don't own or pay for the service provision and b) it costs additional transport and disposal, again which the bin men do not pay for. Everybody who pays council tax gets to pay for you doing that. So people wanting to pat them on the back..

Ahardman, you might work in a nice place but your manager/owner is completely ineffective if you're subjected to some of those things you've mentioned - and a tip surely wouldn't compensate you for being harassed or robbed? If so, how much would it take?

Your workplace should be safe for you to work in and we all I'm sure do 'any other duties' not covered in the job description in our roles but, these duties shouldn't be dangerous or contravene working regulations and that, in my opinion, is what needs to change.

I had a debate about tipping with my parents this weekend (after giving the pizza delivery guy a fiver for a £45 order). I have admitted quite openly that I do not tip for current service being received, I tip to ensure future service is good.

Obviously, I might not ever get the same waiter or taxi driver again, but I get the same hairdresser, pizza guy and hotel room cleaner for sure. I am generally trying to ensure that they want to cut my hair properly, not spit in my pizza and leave me lots of free goodies....

MaidOfStars leaving you free goodies, fine - but to prevent people (being paid a wage for service) to NOT spit in your pizza, cut your hair badly? That's horrendous and I know that it's not unusual for those things to happen either.

We shouldn't have to pay to AVOID practices like that, it's what destroys businesses and the food industry is tough enough as it is.

Yabu. His employer was paying him, he did get paid. Perhaps your OH should negotiate a pay rise if his employer thinks he's such a asset.

I don't think waiters work for free, Eevee77. In fact, I don't think that's legal. They get paid an hourly rate, probably around minimum wage, like my DH. I am sure many of them are absolute diamonds, bring in return custom, have loyal regular customers, go above and beyond, are assets to their employers, but would not be able to negotiate a pay rise either. However, they can expect to supplement their wages with tips. Retail staff, on the whole, cannot.

That's horrendous
I agree. But it's a price I'm prepared to pay

I just remembered that I tipped the lady at the shop who sold me my wedding dress (and the tailor who altered it). At least one of those is retail staff.

I don't blame you, Maid but it's not a tip then, it's insurance Mafiose style

Maybe your DH should consider becoming a waiter then?

i think it is really kind, thoughtful customer service which encourages loyalty, trust and return custom. But it doesn't really matter what i think, or any of you, as long as my husband's employers are fine with it, which they are, and have been for many years without going out of business.

Your DH is being shamelessly exploited by his company and should be paid ten times or more what they are paying him. What matters is not that his company likes him or that he is being kind. He is making minimum wage. The company could go tits up next month and he would be out on his ear like all the other minimum wage employees, no matter how valuable or worthless they are. He is the goose that lays the golden eggs for someone else.

Of course my husband is is woefully underpaid by his employers, but so are many many people who do valuable and often unpleasant jobs
If he set up his own shop he could make a lot of money.

Nice dig, TrickyD.
Maybe you do not make minimum wage and can't see why all the fuss and bother about mere money?

Oh, please don't worry about my DH and his career choices. He is happy with his job, chooses to go above& beyond for his customers- and employers.

He is not happy about tipping waiters, though, and really, can you blame him?

If he set up his own shop ye could also lose a lot of money as he would be responsible for rent, rates, utilities, insurance and half his customers would want him to fix things for free, or pump him for advice before going off and buying online. Lots of people aren't in the position to take a risk like that.

So then don't tip waiters?

I get electronic stuff fixed at a local place. I have brought phones and laptops and digital cameras and a hard drive to them. The people working there are all what might be described as tech heads in their late teens and early twenties.

Just from observation of how they handle customers, it is very easy not to answer questions, not to give advice, just smile, describe the problem briefly, say how long it will take to fix, describe the limitations of the proposed fix, if any, and price your work fairly. If you think someone is just trying to pick your brains, you can refer them to google.

There are many people like me who wouldn't have a clue where to start when it came to downloading fixes - not everyone by a long shot is going to try to take advantage of you. If your service is good you will get customer referrals.

The place I go to is basically a back room of a Chinese restaurant, and I doubt rent is high. Where there's a will there's a way.

Some risks are worth taking. People are willing to pay for the DH's expertise. It is clearly valuable to the employer, but the employer is getting away with not assigning a monetary value to the service, and that is a pity.

It seems to me that part of the OP's issue with tipping wait staff is that they are making more than minimum wage by means of tips while the DH is making minimum wage despite his hard earned expertise, just because he is in a different industry. A dog in the manger attitude isn't going to increase the DH's income. It is only going to reduce the income of others.