Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Faith schools: AIBU to think people are being misled about the 50:50 rule

71 replies

TheKingIsInTheAltogether · 26/11/2016 09:01

The Government's consultation on "Schools that Work for Everyone" will soon close and they are promoting it via the Education threads to get more parent input. If you haven't responded yet, you have until December 12th.

One of the controversial proposals is to revoke the rule that says new faith academies can only select up to 50% of their students with reference to faith criteria. This is often called "the 50:50 rule".

The rule was introduced by the coalition government, at a time when faith bodies were being encouraged to create many new schools under the free school programme. However, there has been pressure from the Catholic Education Service (CES) and some Orthodox Jewish groups to reverse it. The CES has refused to open any new schools while the rule is in place.

David Cameron's Conservative Government resisted that pressure, but Theresa May's Government is planning to give in to it, because they want the Catholic Education Service to create more schools.

There has been a lot of debate about this in the media. One of the lines of argument being used by the Catholic Education Service and at least one of the Orthodox Jewish commentators is that the 50:50 rule "discriminates" against children of the faith. They are suggesting that once the first 50% of places are filled, children of faith can't get a place.

However, that is not true. The second 50% is allocated "without reference to faith", meaning that faith and non-faith families are treated equally. For example, those places may be allocated by distance, or random allocation, just as they would be at a community school.

Often the second 50% of places are filled up by children "of the faith" too, if they're the only ones that want or need the places. But if there's demand from across the community then a wider range of families can benefit from the school.

In admissions terms "of the faith" often means adhering to a very strict set of rules about religious practice. The second 50% gives a chance to children who are "of the faith" but whose families don't follow those rules quite so well. It also gives a chance to families who are expressing a preference for the school for non-faith reasons, e.g. because it is their closest, or the best fit for their family values/aspirations.

AIBU to think that a lot of people don't realise this, are being actively misled by faith leaders, and are responding to the debate under a misconception?

These new faith free schools will be 100% funded by the state. Unlike Church of England schools which are intended to be for the community, Catholic schools are evangelical in nature. Yes, the CES is an excellent education provider, but they shouldn't be allowed to blackmail our government into funding the expansion of Catholicism.

OP posts:
BadKnee · 27/11/2016 00:50

Of course it isn't blackmail. There is no point in having a faith school if the majority of the kids are not of that faith. Why would anyone create a faith school?

Whether faith schools should be funded or not is a different question. And if they are then of course they should be open to all.

The public likes faith schools. Why????

I don't get why you would be unhappy that the Catholics are not going to create any more schools when you want more non-catholics, (or jews or hindus or moslems) in the schools and there is a restriction in what religious based teaching you can do.

I think there is a good case for getting rid of them altogether but not to desire them because they are good but then complain because they want to have a religious cohort.

BadKnee · 27/11/2016 00:57

Just realised how garbled my post is. I think I need to go to sleep

OytheBumbler · 27/11/2016 01:18

I don't understand why anyone would want to send a child to a catholic school if they were not catholics?

A catholic school puts faith above the curriculum. I imagine this is true of other faith schools. In practice this means that catholic beliefs are shoehorned in to EVERY aspect of the school day.

If the second 50% are catholics (whether practising or not) then there's no problem but should parents choose to send their children to a faith school if they themselves are not of that faith? I think that leads to massive difficulties for all involved.

Sorry, just realised Badknee said it all better than me.

faith school educated

JerryFerry · 27/11/2016 01:48

Catholic schools do better because they really know how to run a school. It is nothing to do with money, it is about the buy in of the school community. State run schools will never get this, never.

JassyRadlett · 27/11/2016 02:39

Catholic schools do better because they really know how to run a school.

Then why don't they do better across the board, rather than only when oversubscribed and able to select based on parental faith?

DoctorDonnaNoble · 27/11/2016 05:01

But the government could easily ignore the 'blackmail'. They are in this situation due to their own ridiculous policy of free schools/academies only. Give power to open schools back to the Local Authorities and new schools can be open where they are needed.

TheKingIsInTheAltogether · 27/11/2016 08:28

BadKnee Sun 27-Nov-16 00:50:26: Of course it isn't blackmail. There is no point in having a faith school if the majority of the kids are not of that faith. Why would anyone create a faith school?

Why would anyone create any school then? The Church of England are creating new schools for the whole community. Why can't the Catholic church go 50% of the way towards doing the same?

The fact is that the Government needs school sponsors - good ones - and they don't currently have enough. The CES know this, and are using it as a bargaining chip. That's why it's blackmail.

I don't get why you would be unhappy that the Catholics are not going to create any more schools when you want more non-catholics

They are going to create more schools. They're planning up to 40 as soon as the cap is lifted.

OytheBumbler Sun 27-Nov-16 01:18:01 I don't understand why anyone would want to send a child to a catholic school if they were not catholics

See the answers given to Mistletoetastic Sat 26-Nov-16 20:15:11.

OP posts:
TheKingIsInTheAltogether · 27/11/2016 08:34

But the government could easily ignore the 'blackmail'. They are in this situation due to their own ridiculous policy of free schools/academies only

Too true. But the Catholic Education Service are now set to benefit on the back of it, so rather than sitting back and letting it happen, why not contribute to the consultation and write to your MP to let them know what you think? (And I suggest you don't use the letter to point out the flaws in the free school programme - that's already in place so even if they agree it won't change anything - but there is still time to stop the repeal of the 50:50 law).

OP posts:
TheKingIsInTheAltogether · 27/11/2016 08:44

OyTheBumbler: If the second 50% are catholics (whether practising or not) then there's no problem but should parents choose to send their children to a faith school if they themselves are not of that faith? I think that leads to massive difficulties for all involved

OyTheBumbler there is nothing to stop the second 50% from being Catholics too, because those places are open to all. If there is no demand from others in the community then Catholics are likely to get those places anyway.

However, people do choose faith schools when "not of the faith" or only "culturally" of the faith. Or because they are from a similar faith. They do that for a whole host of perfectly sensible reasons.

In some cases Catholic (or other faith) families are finding they just aren't "Catholic enough" to get through the door of their local oversubscribed faith schools. Many such schools have extremely strict hierarchical admissions criteria based on date of baptism and frequency of church attendance. Having the second 50% open to all means that Catholics who don't follow Canon Law to the absolute letter can get places too. It also stops reduces the "coercive" effect of faith practice criteria - the pressure families feel to go to church more often than they otherwise would in order to compete for a place in a sliding scale of religious practice.

OP posts:
MidniteScribbler · 27/11/2016 08:46

Blame the government, not the Catholic Education system. A government can decide to open more schools in areas of need. But they want to outsource it and get others to do all of the work. Why shouldn't those doing the work want to use that work to support the members of their own faith?

It's not blackmail, and you sound ridiculous for saying it is. They are not going to spend all of their time and money setting up schools that some of their members may not even be able to access.

sashh · 27/11/2016 08:47

Catholic schools do better because they really know how to run a school. It is nothing to do with money, it is about the buy in of the school community. State run schools will never get this, never.

Absolute bollox

They know how to scare children, how to punish them not just in school but in their community , how to select children who's parents will be invested in their education.

None of it is down to the running of the school.

TheKingIsInTheAltogether · 27/11/2016 09:14

MidniteScribbler: Why shouldn't those doing the work want to use that work to support the members of their own faith?

See the answer I posted at Sun 27-Nov-16 08:28:06.

But they want to outsource it and get others to do all of the work

Yes, I agree. And not enough want to do it so now they're vulnerable to bargaining over the 50:50 rule - one of the only positive things to come out of recent education legislation. If you understand that why would you sit back and let it happen?

OP posts:
JassyRadlett · 27/11/2016 11:20

Why shouldn't those doing the work want to use that work to support the members of their own faith?

Because they are using taxpayers' money, which in most cases means people aren't allowed to use that money to discriminate against people based on their religion.

But it's ok, it's only kids. They don't really matter. Perfectly fine to discriminate and segregate.

TheKingIsInTheAltogether · 28/11/2016 21:21

For anyone who is in any doubt about the fact that the UK's Catholic Education Service (CES) is completely out on a limb with its insistence that its schools must be for Catholics only, read this recent report from the Catholic International Education Office (OIEC) – the umbrella body for over 100 national catholic education organisations, including the CES (scroll down for the English translation).

Quote: "The Catholic school is an inclusive school, founded in intercultural and interreligious dialogue ... A non-discriminatory school, open to all, especially the poorest.... In conclusion, the Catholic school is anything but a communitarian school. It is open to all. In many European, American, Arab, African or Asian countries, Catholic school welcomes mainly, or even exclusively, Muslim pupils, Buddhists, animists, or pupils of other religions, even those without religion. It must constantly promote intercultural and interreligious dialogue, if it is to continue its mission. This is in any case a motto of the OlEC, all over the world."

In other words, a school with not 0%, not 50%, but 100% open admissions!

OP posts:
nickelbabe · 28/11/2016 21:28

sashh I think.that's wholly unfair.
Dd's catholic school is a very caring and community-focussed school.
The children aren't taught to be scared of punishment!
The complete opposite is true - they are taught to respect each other and live by proper christian principles.
Even before she went there, the main reason I chose the school was because they continuously supported my business (bookshop) because they wanted to work with the local community

lozster · 28/11/2016 22:07

Did anyone try to fill out the consultation document? I have a PhD so I'm no dim wit but it's like an exam... Certainly not doable on a phone as you need to cross refer to the guidance document. It also makes a whole bunch of assumptions eg grammar = better Does the government REALLY want to consult?

BadKnee · 28/11/2016 23:46

I went to a Catholic school. It was a poor area. We had no money - most of us didn't. It was certainly NOT selective on the basis of class, (or anything except religion".)

And the church raised the money for the building by the way.

We all did brilliantly because:

The school valued education.
The parents supported and worked with the school, (none of this "The teacher is crap, I am going to complain to the head" stuff)
We were expected to behave. We mostly did.
The school , the church, the community worked together.
I was so very happy there. (Primary)

I don't get OP whether you are angry with the Catholics for having schools or deciding not to have any more. I can't see why you want to go to a school where most of the kids are of a faith you don't share and then why you would want to fill it with others who don't share it thus making it a non-faith school.

And is it only the Catholics or are you saying the Jewish schools and the Moslem schools should do the same?

TheKingIsInTheAltogether · 29/11/2016 07:52

Badknee we're not talking about voluntary aided schools like the one you (and I) went to. We're talking about new faith free schools that are fully funded by the Government.

The world has changed immeasurably since we were at school. We no longer live in a country of two religions. Communities are much more diverse and that needs to be reflected in our state funded schools.

The International Catholic Education Service says that Catholic schools should be non-exclusive - for the whole community. England is one of only a tiny number of countries that don't embrace that principle.

The schools can be just as nurturing as you remember, yet still have a diverse intake. Can't they?

OP posts:
myfavouritecolourispurple · 29/11/2016 07:59

I think it's a pity that state-funded faith schools are even permitted, never mind a 50% allocation. If I go for a job, the potential employer cannot discriminate against me because of my religion (or lack of one). Yet a school for which my son would ordinarily be in catchment for, can say he can't go there because he's not the right religion, which isn't anything he can control at that age.

It's wrong wrong wrong.

People don't like grammar schools but at least the kids have to pass a test to get in. Yes I know they may be heavily tutored but they still have to do the test themselves.

TheKingIsInTheAltogether · 29/11/2016 08:35

myfavouritecolour they are permitted because in the past our education system was heavily dependent on them. We owe them a debt which can't be paid until the gvt can afford to buy all the land and buildings that they provide.That's not going to happen any time soon.

However we can surely draw a line in the sand and say that any new faith schools, which are being fully funded by Government, should be open to the whole community. The 50:50 rule goes half way to addressing that. It should be extended to 100%, not reversed.

OP posts:
TheKingIsInTheAltogether · 29/11/2016 08:36

Correction: That's NOT going to happen any time soon.

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page