Faith schools: AIBU to think people are being misled about the 50:50 rule

[TheKingIsInTheAltogether]

The Government's consultation on "Schools that Work for Everyone" will soon close and they are promoting it via the Education threads to get more parent input. If you haven't responded yet, you have until December 12th.

One of the controversial proposals is to revoke the rule that says new faith academies can only select up to 50% of their students with reference to faith criteria. This is often called "the 50:50 rule".

The rule was introduced by the coalition government, at a time when faith bodies were being encouraged to create many new schools under the free school programme. However, there has been pressure from the Catholic Education Service (CES) and some Orthodox Jewish groups to reverse it. The CES has refused to open any new schools while the rule is in place.

David Cameron's Conservative Government resisted that pressure, but Theresa May's Government is planning to give in to it, because they want the Catholic Education Service to create more schools.

There has been a lot of debate about this in the media. One of the lines of argument being used by the Catholic Education Service and at least one of the Orthodox Jewish commentators is that the 50:50 rule "discriminates" against children of the faith. They are suggesting that once the first 50% of places are filled, children of faith can't get a place.

However, that is not true. The second 50% is allocated "without reference to faith", meaning that faith and non-faith families are treated equally. For example, those places may be allocated by distance, or random allocation, just as they would be at a community school.

Often the second 50% of places are filled up by children "of the faith" too, if they're the only ones that want or need the places. But if there's demand from across the community then a wider range of families can benefit from the school.

In admissions terms "of the faith" often means adhering to a very strict set of rules about religious practice. The second 50% gives a chance to children who are "of the faith" but whose families don't follow those rules quite so well. It also gives a chance to families who are expressing a preference for the school for non-faith reasons, e.g. because it is their closest, or the best fit for their family values/aspirations.

AIBU to think that a lot of people don't realise this, are being actively misled by faith leaders, and are responding to the debate under a misconception?

These new faith free schools will be 100% funded by the state. Unlike Church of England schools which are intended to be for the community, Catholic schools are evangelical in nature. Yes, the CES is an excellent education provider, but they shouldn't be allowed to blackmail our government into funding the expansion of Catholicism.

First I cannot see how CES's position is blackmail. They are under no obligation to open new schools.

Second: sibling preference is applied common sense. It reduces school running.

JassyRadlett that set of criteria for a VA school or a free school? And is it 1 form entry or two? (I.e. 30 places or 60?)

VA, two form entry.

Second: sibling preference is applied common sense. It reduces school running

I've got no problem with sibling preference. I have a problem with sibling preference for siblings of those admitted under faith criteria not counting against the faith quota.

I also have a problem with state funding of faith schools which is not relevant to this point.

Faith schools should receive no funding from government. There should be a complete separation between church/mosque/synagogue and state.

First I cannot see how CES's position is blackmail. They are under no obligation to open new schools

The gvt has to open a lot of new schools to meet the population boom. It also needs them to be successful. Local authorities can't open schools any more and the success of the free school programme is completely dependent on high quality sponsors coming forward to do the legwork. The Catholic Education Service is one such sponsor - a very good one. The gvt desperately wants to encourage them to open schools, but they have said they won't unless they get their way over the 50% cap. That is why it is blackmail.

They have said that if the cap is removed they will open several dozen new schools. If it isn't they won't open any.

State-funded faith schools are wrong in principle.

VA, two form entry.

Thought so. Those criteria wouldn't be allowed for a free school under current rules. They would have to allocate the sibling places, then split the rest 50:50, not fix the number of faith places at 30. (That would work out better because the siblings would on average be 50:50 too).

I disagree that what they are saying is blackmail. Blackmail involves threatening to do something ( usually make something public) unless the blackmailer receives some sort of benefit.

The CES is just saying those arrangements don't suit them, so they're not going to open schools under circumstances which don't suit.

I can see why the Govt might be frustrated at that position, but there's nothing stopping other sponsors coming forward.

I can see why the Govt might be frustrated at that position, but there's nothing stopping other sponsors coming forward.

That was the view of the previous two governments, which staunchly defended the cap.

The new gvt under Theresa May is planning to remove it on the grounds that it is "preventing" the CES from creating new schools.

I don't understand the issue here, there is a faith school very close to where we live, the closest in fact, we are not of that faith. It won't be one of our choices and as its really popular I really wouldn't expect to be offered a place there. Isn't this how most people think?

mistletoe many people want their children to go to their local school.

I would have liked for dd to go to our local school, but it is a faith school, and we are not of the faith. We are not in the catchment of any of the local community schools, and therefore have to travel a considerable distance, when there are many nearer schools. I find this very frustrating when I live within 50m of a school. I also have mobility issues which makes the journey difficult, but the council couldn't care less. From a social point of view, it would also be nice for dd to have local friends from school. She feels very left out that all her local friends go to different schools.

op I agree with you that the cap should not be lifted. I think all faith schools should have open access places.

I also think that there is an environmental argument for making faith school places open. Faith schools in my experience have horses of parents who drive like maniacs to school everyday.

we are not of that faith

Mistletoe, what if you were of that faith, but just couldn't get a place at the school because you didn't go to church often enough? Would you start going to church more often? Or would you just shrug your shoulders and think "fair enough - those families who go to church every week deserve the place more than my child who only goes once a month"?

I don't understand the issue here, there is a faith school very close to where we live, the closest in fact, we are not of that faith. It won't be one of our choices and as its really popular I really wouldn't expect to be offered a place there. Isn't this how most people think?

How nice that you have a choice of local schools.

I'm within 500m of three schools, all oversubscribed (there is a shortage of around 200 places a year in our borough). The two closest are CofE schools with a nominal 50% cap on faith admissions. This distorts local catchments so badly that the community school catchment is even tinier than you'd expect it to be - because the two CofE schools take children from much further away, including out of borough.

In previous years,my son would have had to go to a failing (CofE) school about a 40 minute drive away in peak hour traffic, if he got a place in the borough at all. Because unfortunately for him his parents are atheists, which means he has less right to a local state education than the children of people who believe in the 'right' god.

Fortunately for us, the school had a 'needs improvement' two years back and the number of faith applications plummeted. I guess a CofE education wasn't so important to them after all.

The day before applications closed their latest ofsted was published and it was fairly glowing. I am given to believe there was wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Where we live it is the c of e schools that insist on regular church attendance, the Catholic ones do not. Ideally there would be a range of faith and non faith schools available to suit all preferences. Those who want to send their kids to faith schools should be able to do so, and those who hate the idea should have access to non faith schools. But it's not just about that. It's about standards too. I don't know the stats but if faith schools are generally better then maybe focus should be on sharing best practice rather than people sending their kids to a faith school which they would rather not do under other circumstances, or indeed those who wanted a faith school choosing the non faith school because it has better Ofsted rating, but wishing they really didn't have to. I suspect no easy answers, but maybe working together and less of an us and them would be a start.

Ideally there would be a range of faith and non faith schools available to suit all preferences

That would be lovely, but it will never happen. It would require a significant number of surplus places to give enough slack in the system for everyone to have their first (or even second/third) preference met - and I'm not talking about surplus places at schools that require improvement either. There would need to be a surplus of good places.

But it doesn't, because it actively prevents local authorities from building their own schools where they are needed in local areas.

This is misleading. It possible for councils to open schools themselves, though they have to jump through many hoops to show there us no viable backer, and there is no possibility of provision by expansion.

That is not synonymous with 'actively prevents' though I would agree it is set up to be only possible as a last resort.

(thought it important to note that on thread essentially about misleading statements to support a particular stance )

I don't know the stats but if faith schools are generally better then maybe focus should be on sharing best practice

Faith schools only have better results when they are selective - ie there is nothing inherently better about faith education, but when they are able to restrict part of their admissions to children of churchgoers (or whatever other religious hoops they ask people to jump through) the student body is less representative of the local population (fewer children on FSM, etc) and results are better (as you would expect from more involved parents who are able to jump through religious and admissions hoops).

This is misleading. It possible for councils to open schools themselves, though they have to jump through many hoops to show there us no viable backer, and there is no possibility of provision by expansion.

That is not synonymous with 'actively prevents' though I would agree it is set up to be only possible as a last resort.

(thought it important to note that on thread essentially about misleading statements to support a particular stance grin )

Absolutely, on paper. Our local experience is that the government works very, very hard to prevent this happening at all in practice.

After years of courting a free school and getting all the approvals in place for a school in an area of particular pressure, and with the LA, local MP etc having identified potential premises, the EFA decided to place the school elsewhere in the borough. So the identified need that existed still exists and is getting worse (hello, two bedroom flats) and the council has had to start from scratch courting and getting approvals for another free school provider. Likely to be years before anything opens. If this one falls through, or the EFA decides that it needs to be somewhere totally different again because they've found marginally cheaper premises somewhere fairly pointless, then the LA won't be able to open a school, it will just have to start from scratch again.

The LA would love to open a school where there is pressing need, but the government just isn't having it.

It's quite possibly not anything whatsoever to do with the government, but everything to do with the competency of the local council.

Some are great at working out how to do exactly what they want (eg creating new 'satellite' grammars so it's technically an expansion, not a new school, whilst the opening of new grammars was banned). Others less so. I agree it takes considerable tenacity. But it is not impossible.

but everything to do with the competency of the local council

Or the political colour of the local council ... if they're not blue they will find it much harder because the Gvt will not be bending over backwards to make sure they appear competent.

The council are generally pretty good. This situation has entirely been the result of blind central diktat with no reference to local need and a ignoring lot of cross-party local cooperation to get us to the point of being close to opening a school.

And because it's a busy borough and free school providers have previously shown an interest, there is no way the LA will be allowed to press ahead and open a school in an area of need.

So 10, maybe 15 years after the need was first identified we might get a school, if the LA is willing to play ball. If not we'll get to keep playing host to a bunch of out-of-area kids whose parents worship in the right place while local kids have no local provision.

Meanwhile, the last local school the LA opened under the old system went from proposal to doors open inside of 4 years, and is doing brilliantly.

Generally speaking faith schools get better results because of the affect of selection. The better performing ones tend to have fewer poor, SEN and English as a second language children than other schools in the local area. The poorer performing ones don't tend to show this. Once a school has a good reputation more informed and better resourced parents tend to jump through the required hoops to get their children in. Other parents may not know about the hoops or may not be able to get through them so the balance of families served changes.

I would find it difficult to send my DCs to a faith school if I did not belong to that church.