Who is unreasonable? Issue with older person travelling uninsured in Europe.

[shovetheholly]

I don't have a stake in this argument - I'm very much a bystander. Submitting it to the Mumsnet hive mind for consideration.

Adult 1 is older, (70) has a stent in his heart and mobility problems. He is awaiting surgery for the latter. He can still get out and about, however, and enjoys a fairly active retirement. He is decently well off and wants to travel. However, he is appalled at the cost of travel insurance. As a consequence, he is thinking of going abroad to Europe uninsured. His point of view is that the EHIC will limit the potential cost of any accident to around £10k and he can afford to pay this should something happen. He has a tendency to regard insurance as 'tempting fate' and insurance companies as a rip off.

Adult 2 is younger (44). He thinks Adult 1 is wrong that the cost of any treatment would be limited to £10k. He believes that the premium is higher because an accident or emergency is more likely, and that travel insurance ought to be bought to cover potential costs, particularly given that the price is affordable to Adult 1. Adult 2 is generally risk-averse and cautious with money.

Who, in your opinion, is right?

Travelling to India is a little different to travelling to an EU country (which may have very good, free healthcare).

Thanks Shove! I think talking to a broker would be the first step - it still won't be cheap but could be more acceptable to the intransigent one!

But what others have said about bank accounts would be great too, mine doesn't care about loads of extant conditions that other insurers do, and even did a very reasonable price for extra winter sports coverage for the whole year. Mind you probably not a worry for this person!

Healthcare is not free in all of northern Europe: some countries charge for e.g. doctor's visits and hospital stays. There are also the surrounding costs of hotel accommodation for accompanying adult and possible eventual repatriation.

I don't think anyone said it was free in all northern European countries corythatwas. It is free or low cost in some though and very good so it depends on where he is going and whether he would be prepared to stay in a foreign hospital until he is well enough to go home.

The point I was making was not about the hospital care - which was exemplary - the first hospital compared to hospitals here and the second was the tertiary centre for the entire SE Asia for head trauma and orthopaedics as well as two other specialities that I can't remember (actually, the doctor who accompanied her back was appalled at the lack of care on her arrival at the hospital here). Dad is a retired consultant and was very impressed with the quality of the hospitals (while also making the point that it was only accessible for the "rich" and those with health/travel insurance

It was about the repatriation costs and the accommodation costs for whoever is with them (unless Adult 2 just wants to leave Adult 1 alone in hospital ).

If you have a serious illness or accident, however good the care is where it happens, most people would want to be moved home as soon as possible. But it's not always possible to do so quickly or cheaply.

Just checked back - it was three weeks before mum was in a position to be brought back to Scotland. That's a long time for someone else to pay extra accommodation - whether that is India or Europe or anywhere in the world - or to take out of their holiday allowance if they're still working.

It then took another five weeks for mum to be admitted to the Head Injury Rehabilitation Unit - she might have been better staying in India

Hi Shove
Adult 2 is right and I would suggest they do not travel with adult 1. Btw I needed an ambulance in France and even that wasn't covered on the EHIC. My companion showed our travel insurance docs, I'm not sure if he'd have been asked for payment at the time if we couldn't show them but from my not quite conscious perspective, I thought that's where they were headed.

Also whose headache is it if Adult 1 dies? He's being very selfish, I'm sure he'll just say ha ha, not my problem but it will be horrible for whoever has to sort it.

If you have a serious illness or accident, however good the care is where it happens, most people would want to be moved home as soon as possible. But it's not always possible to do so quickly or cheaply.

Most people would prefer to go home as soon as possible but they may not feel it is so important that they are willing to pay £1,000 for insurance, particularly if they were in a European country. Again it is something that needs to be weighed up when considering whether to pay for the insurance.

If I was adult 2 I would refuse to travel with adult 1.

Another NHS Dr here - have seen a fair few repatriated patients. The costs of a medical repatriation are extortionate, especially if you have had a stroke and end up ventilated which happens much more commonly in non-UK practice - we would tend to say the stroke is irrecoverable but have seen a number of these patients have massive amounts of ITU care (which they and their families generally didn't want but got no say in as they were in a different culture), families having to club together for hotel fees etc and then returning to the UK in the middle of the night with a critically ill relative.

The costs would not be limited to £10K.

Have also seen a number of patients risk it - which is OK if you have accepted you might die wherever you are going but not if you want to come better and come back. One patient lost his life savings being repatted from Germany - he had thought the NHS would arrange it.

...as long as that person is then prepared to pay for Adult 2 (or anyone else) to stay locally - or be happy for them to go home or to continue their holiday

.....and that's always assuming that even after being discharged from a local hospital, they'd be in a position to travel home unaccompanied

They may well be prepared for the risk of accommodation costs (which could be less than the insurance premium) though.

Meh, I'm with Adult 1 & would do as I pleased.

Yes I could live with any consequences. I have travelled without travel insurance before.
tbh, saying that one of them is "right" or wrong is weird.
If Adult2 didn't want to come along, fine, their loss.

I've just had this argument with my nan. We're going away next year and her insurance was £30 odd last year, but because she will be 85 this time it's shot up to £83 (including her medical conditions, asthma and type 2 diabetes) She didn't want me to declare her conditions, but I told her she may as well not have any insurance then, as they'd use anything as a get out clause. She finally conceded after having the same conversation about 7 times.

Will adult 1 mind selling his house to pay for emergency treatment and an air ambulance back home if need be? If not, fine, let him crack on being uninsured.

I don't think anyone said it was free in all northern European countries corythatwas. It is free or low cost in some though and very good so it depends on where he is going and whether he would be prepared to stay in a foreign hospital until he is well enough to go home.

Marynary You're taking a very simplistic/best case scenario view of health and recovery. You're not either stretcher bound or up and mobile. There are a million more likely variations of this in between, and repatriating someone semi-mobile and who can sit but cannot, for example, move from a wheelchair to an airline seat without considerable help or machinery such as a hoist is a logistical nightmare. We had to get an uninsured tourist back home in this state recently and it was awful. We don't know the outcome, but if he hadn't developed a life-threatening pressure sore by the time he arrived back in his own country, we'd have been astonished.

Which brings me to my next point - emergency/acute care only is covered under the reciprocal and EU health agreements. We could, with further rehabilitation, have got such a patient to a place where he could have done the trip home much more easily. But rehabilitation is not emergency or acute care, so he had to be evacuated once he was medically stable, or start running up a bill. Had he been insured, he could have received treatment until he really was in a better state to travel, but as it stands, he may well have done himself irreversible damage because he was too stubborn to shell out for insurance.

Lljkk, doesn't sound like much of a loss.

You do not need travel insurance to travel within Europe. Not until brexit is triggered

Christina That is terrible advice and incorrect.

Christina - argh, see earlier posts.

Surely travel insurance is a lot less than £10K ? Whenever I have bought it is was quite cheap - albeit I am not 70 with pre-existing health conditions.

Still - it is a personal choice for everyone - not a right or wrong answer.

we had this szenario with a relative.
they actually had travel insurance but the policy didn't cover repatriation (check the small print!)
it cost us 10k for medical assisted flight home (on a stretcher due to badly broken leg) and £££ for medical supplies and between discharge from hospital and said flight as not part of primary care.
in the end it turned out that his automobile club covered him and we could claim most expenses back.
but, my, that were stressfull times!

ElphabaTheGreen I am not being simplistic at all about it. As a healthcare professional who has a serious chronic medical condition, I appreciate (probably more than you) that there are a million and one variations and that is really my point. We don't know where he is going or what the costs of medical care (with an EIHC) are likely to be. We also don't know the cost of his insurance which could be extremely high. Adult 1 should gather those facts and weigh everything up and decide whether for him the risks outweigh the benefits.

DH has various health problems. I just wouldn't dream of travelling without insurance. We have to get specialist insurance, and its not that bad if you shop about. IMO if you can afford the holiday, you can afford the insurance

its not just medical stuff its natural disasters as well. I know its not Europe but eu get quakes and volcanoes. In the recent last Monday am local time earthquakes in NZ the roads were knocked out, still are. While the navy did chopper out and boat out all who needed to get out some tourist did choose to pay and get out. (funny thing was they got out maybe a hr or two earlier than the rest) Insurance would pay for changed flights, abandoned car hire cars, left luggage. NZ is probably more geared up for this kid of thing the other places and the number of people evacuated out was less than 1000 which included some locals. When travelling you need to look at all this risks and be prepared for as many as possible. Be prepared not scared there is a big world out there get on a plain and take a look.

Can't belirve anyone is supporting the no brain attitude, and that some on here also think the ehic is magic. Can't afford the insurance? No holiday. It isn't essential.

The possible costs will bankrupt whoever pays.

NHS stops at the border.

Agree with Elphaba that some posters take a very simplistic view of what illness abroad might entail.

"you might prefer to stay in the foreign hospital" isn't going to be terribly helpful if the patient becomes permanently paralysed and unable to speak/function/understand due to a stroke. That is something that does happen regularly to elderly people. It's not about individual preferences for getting home sooner or later: it's about the fact that the hospital isn't going to keep you there forever and there is no EU agreement that entitles you to permanent nursing home care in a foreign country.

My own family still remember the horror when an elderly relative lost the function of her legs (though thankfully not of her mind) while on holiday abroad. Fortunately they were able to get her home on the plane while she was still able to sit in a wheelchair and so could use her original ticket. Later on her illness progressed to a stage where that would certainly not have been possible and she could only be moved by hoist. As she lived for nearly 10 years afterwards, it is difficult to see what else could have been done but to get her home.

Younger people tend to think of illness as a bout of flu that you get over or a broken leg that heals. Once you get to a certain age, that is not necessarily the most likely scenario.