Conflicted: potentially tiger mum

[Hereforthebeer]

I'm on AIBU to get some home truths

My DCs are primary. They are both really capable and doing well. My initial view of primary school as an outsider was that it was all about being happy and secure.
I don't always make them do homework, I mainly do the reading required but if we have activities, they miss it. I sometimes miss spelling tests and generally am aware of whats required but also want them to love learning and so am sensitive of when I think they need a break/dvd night. So basically i encourage learning, within reason.
Recently, i've been thinking perhaps this is wrong. They are essentially under achieving even though they are only just out of nappies and I should make them always do their best, even if i sit over them, they should always do what is required even if they are knackered and I should be more 'tiger', more competitive.
WWYD/WDYD?

[Kittenmummy1]

This thread has made me gasp. They are tiny children, learning should be play based and ideally intrinsically motivated. The mere concept of labelling children as "behind" makes me shudder. Behind what? Gove's vision of education? Some arbitrary standard set by God knows who?

We don't do homework now unless they fancy doing it. There's absolutely no correlation between doing homework at primary level and any particular form of success, academic or otherwise. I may be a lone voice against a tide of drone-producing pushy parents but I guess it depends on what you define as success.

[Trifleorbust]

I find it interesting how many people fall back on the fact that their child is currently doing well and that they are bright to justify being 'relaxed' about homework (aka not doing it). There are of course many accounts of children being perfectly successful in secondary after doing the minimum of homework at primary. They are often described as 'keen readers' and 'intellectually curious' - in other words, they are the brighter ones.

As a result, the myth that all children can get away with this attitude because homework 'doesn't matter' seems to gain traction.

Let's not forget that not all children are the same. Some will emerge as less keen, less able. Some will miss later schooling through illness or behavioural issues. Some will be inherently a bit lazy. Some will learn better by structured activities like spelling tests and will not just 'pick it up' by osmosis later. Not all children can get away without firm foundations - I wouldn't be taking the risk myself.

I teach a young lady (now 12) who is a classic example. She is perfectly 'able' on a cognitive level. However, she can't spell very basic words (she believes this is innate, not a result of not reading or practising enough at primary). Because she rarely reads, she struggles to form sentences, particularly more complex ones. Again, because she doesn't read, she has limited inference skills and sees little underlying meaning in what she reads. She dislikes homework and she rarely puts in 100% in class. Guess what her dad wants? Yes, that's right: "strategies" to help her with her spelling! Try reading a book? Try a time machine? Obviously I will help her to the best of my ability and always will, but I find it staggering that her father can't see that it is the habits he instilled that are causing the issue now.

[brassbrass]

if you have a good routine at primary there shouldn't be any drama or pushing or 'knackered' children to coerce into doing homework. It's up to you to set up a system where they can come in after school and get on with reading/spellings or whatever. At primary the work really isn't that onerous.

Getting them into the habit of settling down to work everyday is really important for secondary school when you won't be able to sit with them to do it, they will need to be self motivated to certain extent (with a bit of nagging from you probably). They will have deadlines to manage and if you're teaching them now that it's ok to not do it if you don't feel like it then it's going to be a struggle for them later on.

There is always time for reading, no child is SO busy that you can't manage a few pages.

[Paperthinspider]

Given that children across most of Europe don't do any formal learning until they are 7 and then do better than British children later on I think you can relax.

We are in France and all children are in a school setting from the age of around 4, many are completely bored by not being given anything more stimulating than colouring-in sheets and jigsaw puzzles at the age of 5 or 6, so it's quite common for some children to be moved up a class, which happened to my DS, who is 6, and he isn't the only one. The teacher sets homework which doesn't take longer than 30 minutes and they are expected to memorise poems, learn a lot of vocabulary etc.

[Bluntness100]

For me learning should be fun and interesting at that age with a recognition that we learn for a reason and we need do what is asked of us in certain circumstances.

By letting uour kids regularly avoid homework to do activities or stuff uou perceive as more fun, then I think uou are giving them a bad message that you may struggle with as they grow. You're basically telling them it doesn't matter what the school asks, it's ok to sit and watch a DVD or whatever instead.

Occasional and rare misses, fine, but I don't think as standard practice this is what uou should be teaching uour kids if uou want them to succeed at school and in the workplace. Messages at a young age are hard to change.

I don't see it as "tiger mum" to have uour kids do their homework timely and correctly . I see it as responsible parenting and a lesson that will stay with them as they grow up to be responsible adults.

I'd also have a hard look at myself here, is it because uou prefer doing the fun stuff rather than over seeing homework? We don't need to be our kids friends, we need to be their parents.

[Chewbecca]

How are they 'under achieving', yet 'exceeding expectations'?

I think you should do everything that's asked of the school without fail.

But I don't think anything overtly educational over and and above i.e. additional workbooks etc. is necessary. Just do normal, naturally educational activities such as encouraging any reading, visiting interesting places, playing cards and board games that require a bit of maths (such as monopoly).

[LittleLionMansMummy]

I think parents tear themselves apart over homework and their anxieties can rub off on their dc, doing more harm than good. One of the most important questions we asked schools when choosing a primary was 'what is your homework policy?' Our local school's is horrendous and they seem to think that more is better. The school we chose said they focus on reading because that is the foundation for all other learning - all else follows from that. We have never found the homework too onerous and what they have set (half term project work) centres around family activities that we'd be doing regardless.

They've stepped up the reading this year (Y1) and at the beginning both ds and I were finding it extremely stressful trying to get it all done. He was not yet fluent and I was trying to get him through too much which resulted in lots of tears. It was not productive. We spoke with his teachers and I explained that it was counter productive and stressful for all of us. They reassured us that the key was not the amount he was reading at one time, but that we were doing it regularly enough to reiterate his daytime learning - a page or 2 a night/ every other night was fine. We adapted our approach, ds began to actually really enjoy reading, it was no longer a chore, he became much more fluent and is now flying.

As with all things, you know your child better than anyone and I'm a strong believer in being predominantly led by them. I was adamant that I wanted ds to enjoy reading and what we were doing before was not helping him. Thankfully his teachers are very pragmatic and agreed.

At parents evening we saw his work books and the teachers the comments left were really helpful because they pointed us to the general areas he needs a little help with, rather than the specifics. They gave us some sheets on English and maths and suggested that rather than set weekly targets, the things on the sheet needed learning before the end of term/ the school year. If ds was doing fine in one area, we can focus on a different one. Absolute common sense approach and really refreshing. Incidentally ds is now high end of average for literacy and is initiating homework - he wants to now learn his spellings and try harder sums, because there is no pressure.

Some schools' homework policies are absolutely ridiculous for such young children. A broad brush approach simply does not work. A good school recognises how important it is for children to enjoy learning and that they all progress at different rates.

[Kittenmummy1]

Chewbecca
I think you should do everything that's asked of the school without fail.

I'm lost for words.

[HummusForBreakfast]

You can be under achieving and meeting expectations. Some children will always be working well above their peers. Thats their level of expectation, not the one expected by teachers for the majority of the pupils.

Having said that, I fully agree about teaching them the love of learning. I also agree with needing some flexibility.
However, to create the love of learning, children need to LEARN and if that means 'pushing them a bit' aka working at higher level than their peers because thats where they are rather than leaving them plodding along, then thats what it means. By that I really mean adaptations to the level of the child, giving them things to think about/learn in a nice and enjoyable way (aka NOT exercises they are pointless to teach children to love learning)
For me it means reading them stories at their level (several years above their ''real' age), watching scientific programs (Rough science for example), reading magazines, going to museums, explaining the environment around them (naming plants/animals/what is an insect, talking about seasons etc etc). And in general talking a lot about everything, incl what is considered 'adult' subjects.
But it could also mean giving them access to some websites to do some coding or them learning a musical instrument, going to a chess club etc etc

The stuff they are asked to do at school, I woud always do because I think its essential for them to learn that when you have some homework you do it and you do it well (rather than very quickly and half heartidily because it feels so easy). So YY to always doing the spelling or homework.
Re reading, it depends where your dcs is compare to the difficulty of the book they are given (it shoud match but Im aware that iit doesn't always). However reading everyday (even if not a school book) is essential.

[HummusForBreakfast]

Btw, I have a child who is bright (now in the top 1% in secondary in a few subjects).
In primary, it was ESSENTIAL that he did all the homework. Most of the stuff all of it came very easily to him so it would have been easy for him to learn that no effort was needed to learn when, in reality, at some point, it is clear he WILL need to put some effort in.
It would have done him no favours at all to have a 'relaxed' approach and teach him that he didn't need to do any homework etc... Esp as it was very easy for him to do anyway so was never taking a long time!

[GrinchyMcGrincherson]

I do exactly the same as you. We only started doing more in late juniors to prepare them for high school. Homework is optional for infants in our school. No one has ever fussed about it. The older ones in juniors still only get about a hour a week but we do make sure it's done and encourage more reading.

They are all doing well with no issues.

[HummusForBreakfast]

Here I dont think the curriculum here is carzy at all tbh, compare to the one I went through in France (and the stuff I have seen my friends dcs do there).
My dcs have never learn a poetry by heart, learn number bonds by heart etc etc. They were expected to pick them up at school due to the repetition done there.
They have never been expected to do some written homework every night.

The ONE difference, that is NOT affecting your dcs, is that no they dont expect a child to be able to read before they are 6yo (even though they do START before that). So if you have a chiild that is struggling with reading in Y1, you know you might not need to worry yet because they might just not be quite ready for it. That's what happened to dc2. It also meant that once he was ready (Y2) he had to put some extra work to catch with the others.

[mugginsalert]

I take the same approach as you OP. My 5yo currently likes school and tries hard but is often knackered by the time we get home - he does afterschool club as I'm in work until after 5. I prioritise reading and counting. He puts extra time in himself when he likes a topic. He's performing averagely. I plan to step it up when he goes into KS2 partly because by then the logistics will be easier - he'll be staying up later and his sister will be school age. I am consciously trying to help my kids learn about resilience and 'good enough', as this is important for their adult mental health and decision making. Go to bed when knackered is part of that.

[lottiegarbanzo]

OP I see you haven't acknowledged the suggestion that you talk to your DCs' teacher and find out why they're doing the work they are, or how you can best support their learning.

Instead you talk about 'not criticising' the teacher. How very odd and very revealing.

Two thoughts:

1. Why do you see your relationship with the teacher and the school as naturally antagonistic? That's not normal. Why don't you see it as co-operative and mutually supportive?
   
   
2. Until you understand the approach being taken by the school, you're in no position to critique the teacher's practice. Don't flatter yourself with the word 'criticise' when what you appear to mean is 'uninformed grumble'.
   
   Why not talk to the teacher, ask questions and listen - really listen, with an aim of understanding - to the answer? Then mull it over, try to do things a little bit differently, go back and discuss further? That would be constructive, wouldn't it?
   
   Your use of the phrase 'tiger mum' - an approach that antagonises the child relentlessly in order to achieve greatness (not average success, or competence, greatness) - when what you seem to be talking about is the normal day to day of supporting your normal DCs' learning, is very telling in itself. Why do you view education, educators, schools, achievement and success as naturally relating to antagonism? This does seem to be very much your issue, nothing really to do with your DCs' experience.

[Bobochic]

Primary school is a marathon, not a sprint i.e. what matters is your DCs academic achievement aged 11, not how they do week by week, term by term or even year by year (within reason). Keep the end goal in sight - any normal DC should be able to do very well by the end of primary school if they have worked steadily over time.

It is, IMVHO, absolutely essential to work on your DCs language acquisition skills outside the classroom - expose them to as much high-quality English as possible. Audio books, good TV series, good films are all excellent, as well of course as reading. Read to and with your child as well as listening to your DC read.

[Trifleorbust]

I am consciously trying to help my kids learn about resilience and 'good enough', as this is important for their adult mental health and decision making.

I am not trying to argue with you - your kids, your parenting decisions - but is 'good enough' really 'good enough'? Doesn't this really just teach people not to do their best and say 'good enough' when what they mean is 'can't be bothered to do it'? I don't see how this teaches resilience tbh.

[Megainstant]

I didn't push dd1, she bobbed along happily and averagely until gcses when she got a set of happy but average results

I am pushing dd3 much more as I can see now how important the different stages are. If dd3 is predicted 110 in her SATS she will be further along and expect better gcses than dd1 who was a 99 in her SATS.

[mugginsalert]

Hi Trifle, happy to have the discussion!
To me 'good enough' is not about doing any one thing in a lazy or disengaged way, it's about doing everything as well as you can while you are doing it but about making conscious choices about where you spend your time and energy. The adult world provides many opportunities for burning yourself out trying to be great across many fronts - work, parenting, housework, etc etc. I believe it's helping my kids to develop resilience to understand that although they can do many things, they can't do everything, and so we make choices about what is a good enough level of effort and engagement with each thing that we're involved with. At 5 years old, that just means sometimes putting the school work away and going to bed, i.e. choosing alertness the next day over an additional x pages of homework the night before, or choosing to do some sport. I make sure he does enough to enjoy school fully and not to concern his teachers, and we'll do more when he's older.

[PhilODox]

I often don't, but I find myself in agreement with bobo.
The primary years are crucial and form the child's attitude for the rest of their life. Children need to learn how to work, and how to think, how to apply what they know to new situations they meet. Self-discipline is an important part of that. You are doing the groundwork now so that those things become habitual, and they do them independently when older.

The English curriculum is different from that in other countries. There are positives and negatives, however it does lead to some people being incredibly able at solving problems and independent thought.
Unfortunately there are far too many children that do not achieve this, and the standards they achieve are definitely below those of other countries. Education is becoming increasingly polarised sadly.

[Trifleorbust]

Fair enough, Muggins, and I would never expect a 5 year old to be up late doing homework (!). I think what I would expect as a teacher, though, would be for homework to be prioritised over TV and to be balanced alongside play or structured activities. It is easy to say they are doing 'enough' and later to find out that there are gaps in their knowledge that they and others will struggle to fill.

[LeavesinAutumn]

Ann Robinson did a parenting program a few weeks ago and in the tiger family they made it very serious, sat the poor dc down and stood over them working, the poor boy was scared to write as dad was hovering " son.....what are you doing, you know better than that, think about the answer...." etc and It made me want to break free there is no way I would have coped with that, it seemed cruel to me.

I cant imagine hovering over child making them scared to do their hw.

I have always done a teeny bit extra by stealth, eg, fun fairy math and english books presented like fun magazines over summer holidays, which she can pick up and do as she wants, no forcing...

I helped her to get her times tables, gradually over holidays, just one table each time...lots of reading material etc, but the key here is its all fun and we love learning.

FIL comes along all serious and the tone changes...starts to drill down on maths and English, and you can feel that enthusiasm draining away.
Games that include maths and strategy, puzzles, museums, good tv programs etc etc etc.

my dd does her hw in literally ten mins and its done.

[paxillin]

"Good enough" was my hardest lesson to learn. I used to spend whole nights writing something for work, when a couple of hours would have been good enough. It doesn't earn extra credit. Folding napkins into a heron makes for 20 seconds wonder, folding it in half is good enough. Maybe if I'd practised 10 minutes a day I'd have kept up playing an instrument, the daily hour long sessions led to me dropping it altogether.

Good enough is seriously underrated. I am much better at good enough now, get loads more done and I am trying to teach the kids that good enough is good enough.

[WorraLiberty]

I really don't think I would have enjoyed school or learning, without the support of my parents.

I think feeling deeply embarrassed at being the only kid in the class, who constantly had to tell the teacher that I didn't do my homework/reading/spellings again, would have put me right off school tbh.

I think it's tantamount to that self conscious feeling when you arrive at school late, and all eyes look up at you as you enter the classroom.

Most kids don't like that sort of negative attention.

[WorraLiberty]

Oh and supporting your children at school does not make you a 'tiger mum', OP

It's just a normal thing to do.