to let DD (13) read the Game of Thrones series?

[PurpleAquilegia]

DD is nearly 14. She's reading the Game of Thrones books, currently on book 2.

This came up in conversation with some mums of similarly aged youngsters today, and they seemed appalled. Some more so than others, but the consensus was that the books are totally unsuitable for that age group.

I'm inclined to let her continue. AIBU?

I don't have an opinion either way on whether she should read them or not.

What I don't understand is why you're willing to rely on the opinions of a bunch of randoms on the internet who don't know your DD, but you can't be arsed to read the books yourself.

You can't tell a 14 year old what to read!
If she is reading brilliant.
All the posters saying they wouldn't let their child read it what would you do? Burn the books? Search her bedroom? Shout at her if you found her sneakily reading it?
She is testing her boundaries in print, didn't we all do that? Shakespeare contains many a rape, loads of violence and some graphic bloodshed. Lady Macbeth's child rearing tips anyone? Just because it not considered literature yet doesn't mean it should be banned.
Perhaps it is not suitably girly reading. I was reading violent books containing scenes of rape at 14. Romantic, historical fiction.
Good for her.

Really, you think that the character development of Theon, Jaime, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya, to pick out a handful, have become peripheral? I find that staggering actually. Theon alone is enough for me on that front.

I guess with someone like Jon you have a point though.

I seem to remember reading the works of Ms Jackie Collins in a half-open built-in wardrobe where the offending books were kept. With half an ear out for the car outside. Happy days

Chipped I understand your view but fuck me they're big books to read if they're not your thing!
I think advice from people who've read them is sensible

Maybe this online summary of Ramsay's wedding night will help you make up your mind:

Ramsay's Wedding Night Is Somehow Much Worse

Rather than being handed over to Ramsay Bolton like a sack of old Pogs, at the end of A Dance With Dragons, the fifth book in the series, Sansa is still safely in The Vale posing as Littlefinger's daughter (we are admittedly stretching the definition of the word "safely" in this context). Instead it is Sansa's gal pal from the Winterfell days, Jeyne Poole (being masqueraded as Arya), who is handed over to the Bastard of Bolton, even though both Ramsay and Roose know damn well she isn't really Arya.

Ramsay marries Jeyne to solidify a claim to Winterfell and forces Theon/Reek to confirm in front of the rest of the Stark bannermen that Jeyne is actually Arya (even though Theon also knows damn well she isn't).

Now, on the show, viewers got mighty pissed over Sansa and Ramsay's "wedding night" and how it was yet another example of how tasteless and exploitative the show has become in its constant portrayal of sexual assault. This is a 100 percent accurate interpretation, but it is our duty to inform those of you who haven't read the books that Ramsay's wedding night was mind-blowingly worse in George "Mixmaster" Martin's original text:

"No." Lord Ramsay poured himself a cup of wine. "Laces take too long. Cut it off her." [...] Finally the gown fell away, a pale tangle round her feet. "Her small-clothes too," Ramsay commanded. Reek obeyed. [...] Ramsay rose, the firelight shining on his face. "Reek, get over here. Get her ready for me." For a moment he did not understand. "I ... do you mean ... m'lord, I have no ... I ..." "With your mouth," Lord Ramsay said. "And be quick about it. If she's not wet by the time I'm done disrobing, I will cut off that tongue of yours and nail it to the wall." Somewhere in the godswood, a raven screamed. The dagger was still in his hand. He sheathed it. Reek, my name is Reek, it rhymes with weak. Reek bent to his task.

Yep. Ramsay, proving he will be difficult to unseat in the upcoming "Most Horrible Person In The Universe" awards, forces Theon to assault Jeyne. Later, when Theon finally decides to try to break her out of Winterfell, we find out that things have only gotten worse for Jeyne, as she stammeringly refuses to go with him:

"No. This is some trick. It's him, it's my ... my lord, my sweet lord, he sent you, this is just some test to make sure that I love him. I do, I do, I love him more than anything." A tear ran down her cheek. "Tell him, you tell him, I'll do what he wants ... or whatever he wants ... with him ... or ... or with the dog or ... please ... he doesn't need to cut my feet off, I won't try to run away, not ever, I'll give him sons, I swear it, I swear it ..."

So, um, yeah. Ramsay makes her have sex with his dogs.

Thats what I meant on AP - the story is his descent into the murderous psychopath that he is...or thinks he is. A key componement of the book is him behaving in a psychopathic manner, IYSWIM - which I think differs from GoT as the story is much broader.

I think most teens would miss one of the key issues of the book - I know I did first time - which is what has he actually done, and what is he just fantasising about/all in his head, which is meant to be ambiguous in the book but made rather more blatant in the film. It's strongly hinted that the more, erm, exotic murders are pure fantasy - he's the ultimate unreliable narrator.

"All the posters saying they wouldn't let their child read it what would you do? Burn the books? Search her bedroom? Shout at her if you found her sneakily reading it?"

Strangely hysterical comment. The child in question in 13. Whether you personally agree with reading GoT at that age or not, it's still entirely appropriate and responsible parenting to keep an eye on what material they're consuming- just as you would with films or TV programmes.

I have all the books myself. I'm certainly not about to burn them if DD1 picks one up any more than I would if she tried to stick the GoT box set on over afternoon tea. I'd just tell her it was for adults and stick it back on my bedroom shelf.

I was reading Steven King and some quite quite adult themes fantasy books at that age.

Promise I'm still a functioning human

(And still have a great love of reading)

SaucyJack it was a pastiche of the people saying they would 'ban' the book and not ' let' their child read it.

If the book was on the shelf and the child was told "no" I would hope they would sneakily read it. Reading banned books is a universal joy surely? Briathorn was sneaking Jackie Collins and I was reading a world of rather thrashy excitement and adventure at that age.

Intellectual curiosity is to be praised not frowned upon. Reading a book presents so many more levels than a TV series do some people really not get that?

I was about the same age when I read 'Aztec', after my parents specifically banned me from it. It's a beast of a book in all ways, really long and filled with gore and sex. And it was about this time I discovered Stephen King. I think horrific books can give a window onto parts of the world that we'd rather shield our kids from. I read widely from my early years and was allowed free reign mostly. I understood as a teenager that the world could be a very dark place where nasty things happened, it's probably stood me in better stead than The Famous Five and Sweet Valley High.

I haven't read Jackie Collins (or Jilly Cooper) so I don't know if it's a valid comparison.

GoT isn't a raunchy bonkbuster tho for anyone who mistakenly believes that that's only the problem with it.

There is a LOT of sex, but very very little of it is pleasurable or non-exploitative/non-abusive sex between consenting adults (who aren't brother and sister....)

As a PP has already mentioned, even the great romance of the early books was sanitised for the TV series by casting Dany as a grown woman in her twenties, rather than the child she was in the books.

Honestly, he uses the phrase "raped half a hundred times" like other writers use a full-stop. Very troubling attitudes to women and sex constantly throughout all of the books.

I am on the side of "she's already started". I would have been fine at 13/14.

And I can completely understand why you are asking us - it's not a case of "being bothered" to read them - parents and children have different tastes and interests and amounts of spare time, and it'd be impossible for a parent to read every book that their child wanted to read.

I'll second (or perhaps third) recommendations of other books - maybe get her to take a break when she finishes the current GoT book and she'll be a bit older by the time she comes back to them:

Robin Hobb (start with Assassin's Apprentice)
Patrick Rothfuss (start with The Name of the Wind)
Brandon Sanderson (start with Mistborn: The Final Empire)

bitofacow I'm guessing you haven't read the books.

Your comparisons to trashy romantic fiction and Jackie Collins?

Yeah........ they're NOT those sorts of books.

I do actually find it a bit that anyone with any awareness of the controversial TV series would be all "work away love!" to a 13 year old. Yeah there are differences between the two, but not wild differences. They are identical in dark adult tone.

I absolutely 100% wouldn't let a 13 year old watch the TV series either. No way.

My 13 year old ds is reading them
He is fascinated by the war of the roses which is what GRR Martin based the series on
I was reading Stephen king at a similar age
I'm fairly normal

It's lead to some really great discussions tbh - about incest in history - the ptolomies etc
They treatment of women throughout history and dynastic ambition

I'd just tell her it was for adults and stick it back on my bedroom shelf.

Which is exactly how I managed to read most of Stephen King's books by the time I started secondary school. You're probably going to need a better hiding place.

Read the whole series years ago.

I loved the books (currently re reading them) and we've just started watching season 2.

I seem to remember reading an interview with George RR Martin where he said he had been inspired to write GofT by the Wars of the Roses, and wanted to create a similar vibe and 'lifestyle' to 15th century England.

Back then it would have been perfectly acceptable for 14 year old girls to marry 40+ men. Henry Tudor's mother gave birth to him when she was only just 14. King John hanged hostages at Nottingham Castle, some as young as 5. He also imprisoned Maude de Broase with her young son, then starved them to death. The son died first, and Maude had eaten parts of him before she died.

Just grim, I know.

TV series and books are miles apart. Books usually have a depth of character development impossible in a TV series. Having read and watched GofT I think that is the case. The books are far more nuanced.

I read voraciously as a teen anything and everything, including some military fiction that was regarded as totally unsuitable. It was brilliant.

In regards to bonk busters not being in the same league as GofT in some ways they were worse back in the day. Many a heroine was raped and then fell in love with her abuser. At least in GofT the women aren't 'enjoying it really'.

There are loads of books read by teens that have dark, adult themes its just parents don't know because the books aren't famous. Left Hand of God - very dark, scenes of torture, violent battle scenes etc very popular with teens. Most parents wouldn't bat an eyelid because they haven't read it.

OP - your daughter would probably love it - recommend it to her.

I'm still reading and re-reading the posts on this thread, and still haven't made up my mind. I looked in the library today for some of the authors and titled mentioned. Got one book out and will order more, so thank you all for that, and for the considered and informative opinions.

I'm astonished that I didn't get more chippy replies, actually, considering it's aibu, but...

I don't have an opinion either way on whether she should read them or not. What I don't understand is why you're willing to rely on the opinions of a bunch of randoms on the internet who don't know your DD, but you can't be arsed to read the books yourself.

There's always one.
Chipped, as I thought would be clear from my posts, I'm not 'relying' on the opinions of anyone - I'm seeking a variety of viewpoints from people who have read the books, in order to assist me in sorting out my thoughts on this and making up my mind.

I'm a fast and avid reader, but DD way outstrips me for speed; she virtually skim reads things, and then comes back for a second (and often third, fourth etc pass of the book if it really grabbed her) read of books. She demolishes books at a pace I can't possibly match - it would take me ages to read all of the GoT books, and I have absolutely no inclination to do so; as I said before, the content would distress and bore me. She is not me, however, and our tastes are very different. I haven't read half the books she has, and it has never occurred to me to do so before.

I was the least age appropriate reader ever, I nicked Jilly Cooper and Jackie Collins from my foster mum and then started sneakily buying 35p mills & boons from the charity shop. It's not the sex. It's that the later books have concepts that are hard to read even as an adult woman. Some of the graphic rapes, the bestality, etc.

I'd stop her for a bit after book two; I wouldn't stop her in the middle because that'd drive me insane as a reader.

I'd let her read them. I'm read them myself and enjoyed them very much. GRRM has written some absolutely fantastic female characters.

From my experience of reading unsuitable material at that age, you do gloss over the more outrageous bits you don't understand. Which is the beauty of reading rather than watching the tv adaptation where you don't get to do that.

For example, Jeyne Poole and the dog reference, no way would I have understood that at 14 and would have skimmed over it happily unawares.

Like other posters, I think the idea of "banning" them at age 13 is only going to make them more attractive!

I've read books 1 and 2, currently on 3. So far I haven't read anything so bad that I would prevent a 13 year old from reading it if they wanted to, but some previous posters have said that the following books are worse, so if they are SIGNIFICANTLY worse, then maybe encourage her to wait a couple of years, but accept that it's her choice and she will read them whether or not you allow it

For what it's worth, my friends were reading the first 3/4 GOT at secondary school, probably not much older than she is, and they mentioned the books a few times, but never in the context of shocking stuff, so I don't think they were particularly scarred! That said, I had a friend who was reading Marquis de Sade at 14 or 15 (and that WAS mentioned in the context of "omg, he does this disgusting thing").

I read plenty of stuff as a young teenager that my parents would have considered inappropriate, but none of it upset me. I think it's better to encounter some horrible things in the safe space of print, where you can just stop reading, and have time to process in a safe environment.

I thought Danyaerys was portrayed as being only 14/15 in the TV series, rather than the 13 she actually is at the start of GofT. Don't get the impression she is portrayed as being in her twenties, as was mentioned up thread.

Up until quite recently the age of consent for girls in the UK was only 12 (think it still is in some countries?).

I think people forget that 'childhood' as we know it, is a very recent social construct.