to let DD (13) read the Game of Thrones series?

[PurpleAquilegia]

DD is nearly 14. She's reading the Game of Thrones books, currently on book 2.

This came up in conversation with some mums of similarly aged youngsters today, and they seemed appalled. Some more so than others, but the consensus was that the books are totally unsuitable for that age group.

I'm inclined to let her continue. AIBU?

Was it Ramsay with the dog thing? I must admit I can't recall it either.

On the plus side, at least the bad things are generally portrayed as being bad rather than the usual teen-books that describe abusive, controlling and vaguely stalkerish relationships as something to aspire to.

Sorry I was typing while putting a baby to bed. That's what I meant anyway.

It is odd though what effect books have on you. I read American Psycho when I was probably about Y10 and didn't think anything about it other than it was extremely boring. But A Handmaid's Tale (which I had to read for AS) completely screwed me up and I still 12 years on can't get bits of it out of my head.

Lules: Do you remember the part of the book where the protagonist penetrates his victim with cheese and a live rat and it eats her inside out? I wouldn't let a Y10 read that. Call me crazy

I remember reading 'last exit to Brooklyn' at 16 and being traumatised.

On the one hand good on her reading them as they are a bit of a wade unlike the to series but if the sex and violence is anywhere near the same as the to series, I would say no. But all children are individuals so you know your child best.

I don't remember that but no I wouldn't. No-one let me. I just took it off my parents bookshelf. No idea why they had it as they hate that kind of thing.

If she likes the politics and intricate worlds, then has she tried Raymond E Feist?

She's already into Book 2 so might be hard for her to stop. At that age I was also reading Stephen King and GoT like that though and I am now studying for quite a gory degree - I think some people just like that sort of stuff. :)

Here are some quotes from the book that might make you realise the content:

- "No." Lord Ramsay poured himself a cup of wine. "Laces take too long. Cut it off her." [...] Finally the gown fell away, a pale tangle round her feet. "Her small-clothes too," Ramsay commanded. Reek obeyed. [...] Ramsay rose, the firelight shining on his face. "Reek, get over here. Get her ready for me." For a moment he did not understand. "I ... do you mean ... m'lord, I have no ... I ..." "With your mouth," Lord Ramsay said. "And be quick about it. If she's not wet by the time I'm done disrobing, I will cut off that tongue of yours and nail it to the wall." Somewhere in the godswood, a raven screamed. The dagger was still in his hand. He sheathed it. Reek, my name is Reek, it rhymes with weak. Reek bent to his task.

- "No. This is some trick. It's him, it's my ... my lord, my sweet lord, he sent you, this is just some test to make sure that I love him. I do, I do, I love him more than anything." A tear ran down her cheek. "Tell him, you tell him, I'll do what he wants ... or whatever he wants ... with him ... or ... or with the dog or ... please ... he doesn't need to cut my feet off, I won't try to run away, not ever, I'll give him sons, I swear it, I swear it ..."

- This is about a character's older brother molesting him: The sound came softly, the scream of a rusted hinge. "Urri," he muttered, and woke, fearful. There is no hinge here, no door, no Urri. [...] The sound of a door opening, the scream of a rusted iron hinge. Euron has come again.

- Also someone gets their face chewed off.

- Oh and the dog hunting scenes are much more graphic and much worse than on the show.

- In the first book the sex scenes aren't so graphic but as the series goes on the scenes, especially the rape ones, are.

If she is so into fiction writing are you sure she is not accessing mature fanfiction online? This is a place where people can post their own fiction writing stemmed from Tv shows etc and it is not monitored what they can write.

Same here, I used to read everything! But I would make my 13 year old wait a year or two for this.

I'm not saying we should let all teenagers read everything. (Although it would be hard to stop them if they were really determined). I'm just saying where we draw the line is going to vary from teenager to teenager and, for me, Game of Thrones would be ok for some 13 year olds. And that your point that you would be fired if you covered it in an education setting was a different situation and therefore not particularly relevant.

Ugh yeah I remember that bit.

Depends on the y10.

I'm a huge fan of the series and have read them several times and I honestly would say no. If she's reading A Clash of Kings then most of the more brutal stuff hasn't happened yet but yes it does get very dark. The dog thing will likely go over her head though - it's inferred rather than explicit

Lules: I think it is relevant. I wouldn't be fired for it not being educationally helpful, I would be fired for breaching safeguarding protocol by exposing a child to graphic sexual content. I'm not sure how that's not relevant, although I concede it isn't exactly the same.

I must admit, the first two books are a lot tamer than the later ones, thinking about it.

I'm generally not a prude about what teenagers read, but equally, having read some fantasy books with fairly questionable content myself at a similar age, I do think you have to be wary.

It's not so much about the graphic content of the sex imo, it's about the context of the sex- there's an awful lot of sex in the series which is coerced or the result of a power imbalance or involves young teenage girls and much older men. There's also a lot of minor sexual assaults that are glossed over. In most cases, rape is condemned, but sex in the context of forced marriage is seen as much more of a gray area in the books.

It's also worth bearing in mind that the child characters were all aged up for the TV show, and in the books there's a lot of very young teenagers having sex and being coerced into sex.

In the first book, for example, Daenerys Targaryen is 13, and forced into marriage with Khal Drogo- a man she doesn't know or even share a language with. Whilst their wedding night is pretty much portrayed as a rape, their relationship changes and eventually becomes something of a love story, Dany learns to enjoy sex with him and eventually mourns him when she dies.

Equally, later in the series, Sansa Stark is forced into marriage with Tyrion Lannister when she is 12. Tyrion ultimately doesn't rape her, but he does "just" seriously sexually assault her on their wedding night, and is sort of portrayed in a good light for eventually deciding not to rape her.

There's a lot of romanticized abusive relationships in the books, most involving young teenage girls and/or incest, which is what would concern me more than the descriptions of sex and violence, which she can just skim over if she wants to. You can't really skim over the whole nature of a relationship which is a central plot thread.

At the very least, I'd suggest discussing the relationships and character's attitudes to sex and sexual violence with her.

I would stop her at the end of book two. That's a good compromise. She'll appreciate them more when she's older and they'll be less likely to scar her!

Oh, also, there is a scene in A Dance With Dragons (the most recent book) where Tyrion has sex with a sex slave, and it basically reads like a rape written from the rapist's point of view. Although Tyrion does realise what he's done is rape, it is one of the more disturbing things I've read.

Looking back at a lot of the things I read at around 13/14 which had graphic sexual context, I think I did get some of my expectations about what sex would be like from what I read, and a fantasy series with heavy BDSM content influenced my ideas of what made a woman/girl desirable. I don't think there's anything wrong with reading graphic sex scenes as a younger teenager, but it's the context they're presented in, and how that influences you which can be a problem.

If she's read book one, and already started book two, it would be a sin to take them off her now. And if she's determined to read them, she'll find a way (the audibooks are on youtube for example). They're a gripping read. "Are they not basically just sex and violence?" No, those are just important story elements, many history books are equally as grim. The various characters, story arks and how they're all connected are fab. I read them last summer, in about 8 weeks. I was completely gripped.

I was reading equally adult stuff at about the same age and it never did me any harm. In a way, I think it made me a bit more mature/sensible. I remember discovering a child called it, the Torey Haden books and that whole miserable childhood genre, and really having my eyes opened.

Agree do try to have a talk with her about some of the themes in the books. Rape (marital being the most common), mental health issues, corruption, sadism, abuse of power, assasinatin, slavery etc.

Fair enough trifle. I'm probably just in a bad mood with a cold and lack of sleep

Get better soon, Lules

Thank you

I think it depends on how mature she is, if you feel she can handle the themes. When I was 14, I'm sure I read worse :)

Oh God yes the scene with the sex slave.

He looks over and sees his spunk running slowly out of her vagina, and vomits all over the carpet.

Honestly that was hard for ME to read, and I'm ancient!

tbh I agree with other comments - how are you going to stop her reading them? (or watching the show, come to that). Better to be open to having an honest discussion with her about issues that come up (or with ex DP if he is reading them) than have her read them in secret and dwell on things.

If there are parts that upset/disgust her, she will probably stop reading herself.

Sgtmajormummy - while the books weren't necessarily written for screen (before HBO came on the scene GRRM said several times that they would be impossible to film), GRRM was a screenwriter before he became an author, and I agree he has a very 'visual' style, and episodic way of plotting, etc.

Some bits are indeed grim. I must admit I found the rest of the story is so gripping that the nastiness doesn't really stay with you - someone mentioned American Psycho upthread which is the opposite - the focus is really on the terrible acts, they are the story, whereas this is not the case in GoT.

Thinking about it, I'm not sure I would feel comfortable with a 13/14 year old reading them without reading them first myself - it would be unsuitable for some, fine for others. I devoured much worse at that age, however there's plenty of adults who would be troubled by the contents.

Aside from the sex and violence, it's a really interesting story with decent characters

. It does sound pretty awful when you just pick out the worst bits though...

But a lot of books do. Take another teen favourite, IT by Stephen King... A bunch of twelve year olds have some kind of magic group shag in the sewer there's incest, child sexual abuse, rape, homophobia, racism and more violence than you can shake a stick at...

Wow. I absolutely love these books, and I'm really liberal about what my 12 year old watches and reads but there is NO. BLOODY. WAY. I'll be giving him these in a year's time. They contain some really gruesome, violent, sexual content that could be very confusing and disturbing for a young teen. There are tons of excellent fantasy books that are suitable for this age group. ASOIAF is definitely not one of them.