New £23k Benefit Cap.

[legotits]

AIBU to ask if anyone still supports this?

Which families is this targeted at?

Anyone who will be affected, is it even feasible to not be pushed into debt?

disabled people unable to work should not be denied the chance to have a child. The state absolutely should support those families to a decent standard of living

I think the word 'decent' is where levels of ambiguity lie. The word means very different things to different people. If you cannot work and rely on benefit-what are you 'allowed'? Should they have one child? Two? Three? More?

What is 'decent'?

'still think its too high, should be paid in food vouchers and fuck all else - unless disabled, too many people play the system which is why we are a mostly failing country and a big % of kids have no get up and go'

So you think a 60-year-old who is made redundant after having worked for, let's say the max, so 44 years, and isn't able to locate FT employment, because this is quite common, should be handed food vouchers and 'fuck all else'?

The reason we're a 'failing' country is because successive governments sold off/privatised our industries, failed to invest in new industry and development of industry and in its own people, and allows big business to pay FA in taxes.

A lot of people are confusing 'cap’ with 'minimum’, the majority of people on benefits aren't getting anywhere near the cap amount BUT the reason we're bloody terrified worried is because this will lead to cuts further down the pyramid.

‘ they should be retraining/improving their employability/volunteering ‘

Cuts mean little training available
Current system disallows some courses, rules are ‘if you do x/y/z training you're not looking for work therefore we'll sanction you’ people have been sanctioned for attending job interviews ffs!

Improving their employability - not everyone is blessed with enough intellect to get the few jobs that are out there. A lot of people on jsa are believed to be learning disabled/illiterate/mentally ill but undiagnosed, particularly true for youngsters coming out of the care system. I'll try and find the reports.

“You can not be for the cap but believe those with disabilities should be provided for,” ABSOLUTELY!

Volunteering - all the volunteer places in my county are OVERsubscribed. Plus as there's no money and no spending several of the charity shops have closed.

'save up in case shit happens’ the majority of people in work are scraping by, they can't afford to save/pay insurance.

As I said before shelter estimates 8 million one pay cheque away from eviction due to non payment of rent. They've also said they were expecting around 90,000 calls yesterday regarding the cuts leading to inability to pay rent.

Go elsewhere - in addition to what I said earlier, do the people suggesting this realise this will mean a drain of low paid but essential workers on the expensive areas? Are you going to volunteer to sweep the streets/collect refuse/work in care homes/clean/provide childcare (now THAT would be interesting - oh I think the low paid on benefits should move to where it's cheaper to live - of shit there goes my childcare so I can work!). Also what do you think will happen regarding infrastructure in the cheaper Areas? They're cheaper because the people there are paid less, council tax rates are lower, finding for schools, gp's, council services is LESS

“The children don't deserve to be punished of course but nor do mine.” Proof divide and conquer tory propaganda is working. We don't want your children to suffer, we want a fair, just supportive society.

There's also an awful lot of 'but of course I don't mean YOU’ going on - except you do because these cuts ARE affecting the sick, disabled, abused, unsupported.

“If these people are unable to think to the future, are unable to hold down a job, are unable to provide for their children but have them anyway then I would suggest they aren't (usually) capable of raising children who then go on to become valued members of society. The obvious thing to do here is to break the well-documented and statistically proven cycle and protect these children from their parents. Remove them from the toxic environment and give them a chance for a bright future.”

That is shockingly offensive! You're basically saying only the wealthy and intelligent deserve to be parents!

Missvictoria your info doesn't add up.

Also getting really sick of seeing posted repeatedly “don't have kids you can't afford” the vast majority of claimants had their children before they were claimants, it's inhuman to expect people to never have sex or never experience contraceptive failure or BE HUMAN!

Re NHS treatment only for the 'deserving’ OMG! there are very very few illnesses/accidents that don't have links to avoidable causality. All cancers, heart disease, stroke, DVT, pulmonary embolism are caused at least indirectly by - being overweight, eating processed food, drinking alcohol, smoking (including passively), not exercising enough, ingesting manmade toxins, using radioactive technology, sti's, getting too much/not enough sun, not eating the right nutrients etc etc etc. Genetics play a part but a very small one. Unless you are living a perfect life on an island in the middle of an ocean thousands of miles from toxins and eating and drinking only completely organic unprocessed food you cannot comment! And even THEN you'd probably end up having a nervous breakdown from the isolation! Ffs!

Mango yea there's quite a few claiming that even 2 adults working are getting very low incomes, I suspect they're also not declaring/including child benefit, tax credits (which makes THEM benefit claimants as far as the Tories are concerned), subsidised childcare.

“These 'hard working people' are either not working full-time after all, or are being very liberal with the truth.” YES

“Women not working after marriage was very common in 1950s/60s and they relied on husband for pension etc.” yes I know several women like this who are VERY quick to condemn younger women who don't work especially lone parents.

Food Boucher systems where they currently operate lead to INCREASED poverty because it severely limits the ability to shop around and get the best value and because some retailers abuse the system. Plus would cost more to administer than current system.

This is one of the big fallacies around the cuts - they don't save money. They simply appease those who've bought into the propaganda, they provide a distraction to what the REAL causes of poverty (for the working poor and the non working poor) are.

“If you are able bodied you should have to work” Jesus! Excellent - show us the full time 16+ hours, above nmw or else most would STILL be dependent on benefits, not zero hours or commission jobs then compare how many you find to the number of people on jsa! Or EVEN 2 part time jobs with hours compatible to each other! Including travel time.

It MAY not be the govts job to support the unemployed BUT it IS their job to run the economy competently so that there ARE jobs, that taxes are paid according to the law, that there's affordable suitable housing (no slum landlords, revenge evictions, overcrowding etc), that employees are paid a LIVING wage that doesn't NEED subsidised.

en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/eugenics

“So, to be disabled and unable to work means you shouldn't have children. That's called eugenics.”

“I'm saying the decision to have children or not isn't down to your own genetics but your ability to provide for them.” WHICH CAN BE DIRECTLY AFFECTED BY A DISABILITY! FFS!

'Allowed' this is part of the problem, that clearly those unfortunate enough to be stuck with a life long disabilities that prevent them from working are so far beneath others that they must be 'allowed' or 'not allowed' to chose how many children they can manage to parent.

Disability benefits are a tiny proportion of the benefits bill, but yeah let's limit them further to prevent 'disability breeding', rather than say looking at the huge corporations who the tory's let off with huge tax bills, that are a billion times bigger than the cost of disabled parents.

& Graph despite the stats on care leavers being stuck on benefits/often unable to manage higher education/training/ending up in prisons and/or psychiatric institunions several pp's are saying that putting children into care when parents are stuck on benefits is the solution. No one's grasping the logic fail there.

People aren't reading these stories, they have their minds made up.

Phillip Green fella sat on a big boat deciding if he will give back 2 or 3 hundred million to the pensioners he robbed.

But nooooooo

Single Parent who committed no crime, at the very worst took advantage of a legal system.
At least a few kids, potentially a disability too.

There's a baying mob for those fuckers.

Shall he give them £300.000.000 or shall he save himself £100.000.000 and just chuck in £200.000.000

I had to Google and check the numbers.

BabyJakeHatersClub I completely disagree that anyone with a disability shouldn't be allowed to have a child, but in response to your really offensive comment, what happens if you have children, a job, a home and a good income and then become disabled? Should these families be on the breadline?

Decent used to be evaluated based on individual cases, not a blanket ban.

Thank fuck for parents with disabilities, atleast some children will be growing up with compassion that the lack of is clearly a huge parenting failure from others.

And no it's not an insult to working parents- many of whom will either claim top ups or have the opportunity for their wages to increase with promotions etc long term. They'd be stupid to envy anyone stuck on benefits long term because of disability. And I'm one of those working parents BTW, I work and volunteer part time around my children's disabilities, my disabilities and my partners work. We have dla & carers allowance & no tc/cb. We can't afford another child, but I'm not stup I'd enough to envy those stuck on benefits because of their disabilities who will get more if they have another child. Another huge parenting fail for anyone who does.

"I've already said that absent parents should be found and aggressively made to pay to support their children."

What if they can't?

I take it you and your DH are resourceful? Intelligent? Well educated?

What about those people who are of low intelligence, have poor basic skills, are poorly educated?

How should they live? The ones who will ALWAYS be with us because our economy works by keeping a large number of people in very poorly paid and insecure work to provide flexibility and good profits for industry. These folk at the bottom of the pile, and their children, they can scarcely afford to shit without the help of benefits. Do you want to pull the rug out from under these people too?

In the past folk probably dreamed of a future where those people who were at the back of the queue when brains, talent, energy and ingenuity were being handed out no longer had to live like animals and raise their children in misery.

"No one's grasping the logic fail there." Exactly - and not just on this example!

pretty sub standard childhoods

Lovely. You do realise that money doesn't necessarily buy happiness? My son and I go out for walks, to the park, to the beach and fields daily. I spend time with him, helping him with his his speech difficulties and learning programmes and playing with him constantly. That's a sub standard childhood? I like to think that experiences, rather than 'stuff' make for a happy childhood. The unkindness you have showed to other posters curry, makes me wonder about your own style of 'parenting'. I will always teach my son to be kind to others; somehow it seems unlikely you'll be doing the same .

BabyJake I live in one of the cheapest areas in the country because we can't afford to live anywhere else, we don't have a massive income and manage on what we have. It doesn't mean I expect people to be forced into poverty because it's the new politically correct thing to do.

Everyone is so busy bashing people on benefits but nobody is slating tax dodgers, Phillip Green, MPs frankly obscene expense allowances, private landlords charging exorbitant rents, companies paying shit wages on zero hour contracts are they? But it's ok to be scathing about people who have disabilities and kids who have no other option but to survive (and I do mean survive) on benefits. Ugh.

"Intelligent enough to keep a job to do so" NOT EVERYONE IS millions of illiterate, dyslexic, mentally ill, mildly learning disabled (apologies crap turn of phrase but can't think how else to put it) people who've slipped through the full of holes thanks to recent policy change net where they SHOULD have received support to address those issues before they reached age 18 are now being left to fend for themselves and their children in a failing economy that only benefits the wealthy and well!

That's very true Mini

You may have envied those better off.
Didn't sneer and punish those worse off.

You did your bit, part of that is helping where you can.

I can imagine what my coworkers would say if they started introducing wage cuts every year.

This is no different, change the rule don't punish someone for following it.

It's also incredibly offensive to suggest only parents earning enough not to need state subsidy are good caring parents - seriously these parents are AT LEAST as likely to be abusive, neglectful and incompetent at parenting as anyone else. That myth (that only the poor abuse/neglect their children) was disproven a LONG time ago!

BabyJake has been here for a couple of days. BabyJake has been reported.

Disabled people should take the decision to have children the same as everyone else i.e. Are they in a long term stable relationship, can they provide for their child themselves (without the need for another adult or the state helping and are they physically able too.

The problem is people do the "I want" without even considering the consequences as they know someone else will have to pay.

It's the reason so many children are born from "accidental" pregnancies or within relationships that have barely even begun. Take away the financial assistance and personal responsibility will return.

Those that don't claim have to make choices about where they live, the size of their family etc. Why should those that don't be rewarded?

If the parents don't care enough to provide then what does it say about them?

People have very strong views. However I do believe most people on the thread are listening to each other and learning. By the way I did very well on the benefits Guardian and rather biased checklist and I have repeatedly said on the thread (despite my being a big fan of the benefits cap) that I know most claimants are not up against it and many work.

The minimum wage is £7.20 an hour so two full time workers in a couple will earn £26k a year before tax (if 7 hours a day) and £24k after tax/NI. The benefits cap in London is about £23k after tax as it were. So really the cap is about the same as working full time which is amazing - why bother to work when you can both sit at home and be handed this cash from hard working tax payers in couples where both work full time and pay a whole of one wage in child care.

Yep iirc nspcc's figures show that children who are abused come from all classes -33% working class, 32% middle class & 32% upper classes.

& very very few people can afford to have children if we take into account the possibilities of parent dying/leaving/becoming disabled or the child's disabilities preventing parents earning a living wage.

Ayeok. Honestly, this thread has made me really fucking depressed. Everyone in the team working with my DS tells me I'm doing great, but to some posters on here, I'm just a feckless sponger. I despise defending myself in the middle-class MN courtroom. Live my life for a week and report back to tell me what a piece of piss it is.

My dd is 17 and struggling even to find part time work. She only has 2 GCSE's because she is mentally ill and last year broke down around the time of her GCSEs and couldn't sit them. Her education is a disaster.

She will struggle to be economically independent as an adult. I fear for her future if DH and I aren't here to help her. People are so cruel and hard faced. I'm shocked by how horrible people are on this thread. I have another child with HFA. I'm worried for my children.

"Live my life for a week and report back to tell me what a piece of piss it is." Amen!!