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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To feel very uncomfortable about this Guardian article?

652 replies

KingscoteStaff · 05/11/2016 08:41

Front page of the 'Family' section. A grandfather talking about his 21 yo granddaughter who has just committed suicide.

It just doesn't feel real. Could it be some sort of exercise in writing the most unsympathetic narrator ever?

OP posts:
ForgotStuff · 06/11/2016 13:28

Perhaps the reason that he doesn't say anything loving about his granddaughter is that he didn't love her. We don't and can't know how he behaved/behaves in real life. Hopefully he has done/does the right thing and is supportive to his family. The fact he comes across and angry and uncaring in the article doesn't mean he wasn't/isn't in person.

If we were all to be judged on our private thoughts then I'm fucked 😂

BTW Do we know if the names used in the articke are real?

ForgotStuff · 06/11/2016 13:29

Oops, sorry for typos

GloriaGaynor · 06/11/2016 13:31

These thoughts are not private they're in a national newspaper.

OurBlanche · 06/11/2016 13:35

Yes. And, at risk of being irritating and making it all about me again, publishing articles like that promote debate, like this thread.

People can discuss the issues it raises, explore their own emotional responses.

As much as you find it deplorable others find it useful powerful, a good point of debate.

MarianneSolong · 06/11/2016 13:37

Our thoughts are not private here either.

Some of us have chosen to speak out in very personal ways in the full knowledge that our words may bring up strong emotions or difficult memories in others.

slenderisthenight · 06/11/2016 13:37

full of not just anger (which is understandable as a normal part of traumatic bereavement and grief in general) but incredible contempt. Considering someone who was so unhappy as to kill herself to have been 'refusing to allow joy into her life' profoundly misunderstands what is going on for a person who is very unwell, and, in my opinion, plays into a dangerous idea perpetuated, largely by the 'wellbeing' movement, that anxiety and depression and other forms of mental distress are deliberate choices people make due to weakness of character or lack of imagination or insufficient loving kindness.

This.

He is clearly spitting with rage. That's fine.

He clearly hasn't been able to see the humanity in her enough to like her for years. Fair enough.

What he shouldn't be doing is allowing his subjective feelings to add up to a public piece that makes an 'objective' contemptuous judgement on who this woman was and what her life amounted to.

He sounds poorly placed to understand her or know her.

Anyone who has experienced depression will know that it triggers contempt and resentment in some people - they do not necessarily need to go through the wringer as a family member to have this scorn and dislike. The idea that allowing 'joy in' may not be a choice for some people excites anger in others.

BillSykesDog · 06/11/2016 13:40

Blanche, I don't dispute that a lot of people do have feelings like this after suicide. But as Gloria said, they don't publish it in national newspapers.

Plus, it's several years after the event. The anger stage is an early one in grief which would be expected to be over by now, possibly even the blame stage.

And even when people are very angry at someone who has committed suicide, I think most of them would be able to pull out at least one good quality or happy memory. He paints her as a monster. In fact she was little more than a child and clearly very damaged.

sohackedoff · 06/11/2016 13:46

Does he think she chose her mental illness? Choose life! No...I choose mental illness.

Awful.

fancyknittedstuff · 06/11/2016 13:47

GloriaGaynor Sun 06-Nov-16 10:26:03 Brilliant post, eloquent and so true.

The writer seems to have seen his GD as essentially flawed maybe because she was behaving differently to his expectations.To me he sounds like a patriarch from the olden days who expects girls and women to be heard not seen, not to make a fuss and be pretty to look at (roses) but not to challenge his expectations (be reckless) or tarnish her own beauty with self-harm. He comes across as old school and I certainly feel more empathy for Emma and her immediate family than this grandfather based on his writing.

Every single life matters, regardless of how conflicted and complex. Peace & love to all posters and everyone reading this thread. Thanks

GloriaGaynor · 06/11/2016 13:47

Very good post slenderisthenight and the post you were quoting.

ItShouldHaveBeenJess · 06/11/2016 13:50

I apologise for not reading the entire thread. I agree that the writer seems to show a lack of empathy and a misunderstanding of MH issues. However, when my best friend took her own life (and my reaction had a lot to with the fact that my beloved father had died very suddenly six months earlier), I felt angry. Really angry. That was the first emotion I experienced on finding out, and even now, seven years later, I still feel a little bubble of fury.

She was 28. She was beautiful, intelligent, hilarious and the funniest person I'd ever met. She was and always will be the best friend I have ever had. On the night she committed suicide, she phoned me with the news that Michael Jackson had just died (she wasn't a fan). We were both shocked, talked for about an hour and then said goodnight. It was as normal as a conversation between friends about a dead celebrity can get. She ended the conversation with "Love ya, Jess".

The next day, she was dead. I guess my anger is more directed at myself because I didn't understand, realise or guess something was terribly wrong. She'd been through a break up, but talked about it with her usual humour. There really were no clues, other than her Tourette's, which she usually managed really well, had gotten worse over the last few weeks. I also felt angry at her because I'd just lost my dad, and I'll be honest - I actually thought "How DARE she put me through this again?"

I still miss her daily. She would have been DS's godmother (she is, albeit it unofficially). She had bright red hair and I occasionally glimpse young women from behind who look similar and feel a tightness in my chest. But I still feel angry at her.

I think the fact that it is a grandfather, rather than a father, writing the article may be telling. He has had to watch his beloved daughter's grief through all of this. I can only guess that his hurt and lack of comprehension comes from feeling unable to properly support his own child. I don't know.

Batteriesallgone · 06/11/2016 13:54

I think I had a very strong reaction to it because it could be my mother writing that about me, in a different universe where I'd died from my suicide attempts.

This article for me triggered that sense of profound loneliness. Not being good enough at being her daughter to perform childhood - to perform my whole life - according to the standards of my family. Being weighed and measured and found wanting.

I suspect my mother didn't think me deserving of the additional years I've lived post suicide attempts. Not that she wishes me dead - but I do suspect she thinks I don't deserve the happiness I have now.

iPost · 06/11/2016 13:55

Should you, can you, be angry, abandon this person in order to save yourself and other family members?

The option would have been nice. Abandonment carries the risk of criminal charges where I live.

We went through experienced, professional, round the clock carers like most people go through their clean knicker drawer.

We tried a specialised, live in home. Within a week they insisted that on top of their fees we paid for an extra dedicated carer just for her. Three months later they booted her because their staff turnover had gone through the roof and families were withdrawing their relatives (in much the same diagnostic boat as MIL) because MIL was making other residents' lives miserable and visiting time had become a war zone.

So that left us. On our own. In our own home because after the last rental experience, with all the having to face the furious residents of all the other flats, our rather isolated farmhouse with few neighbours to annoy was deemed the only realistic choice.

24/7 in home care. And it really was 24. She could go days without sleeping. Just dozing here and there for 15 minutes, between violent, furious, vicious outbursts.

And the law thought it was right, just and acceptable to arm twist us into that existence. All while leaving us exposed to SS, because our child was living in a high tension home where his parents were being frequently, physically abused

If DH could have abandoned her to the state without legal ramifications would it have happened ?

In theory. Yes. Absolutely.

But he couldn't abandon her, and I could not abandon him.

Aside from the fact that I love my husband, I had to juggle the risks for my son. Stay and risk the negative outcomes for my kid caused by a limited (by age + self destruction catching up physically) period of intense instability and high tension. Or leave and risk the high potential of him being "that kid", the one whose father was in the news for killing his poor, old, ill mother and then committing the terrible sin of suicide.

I chose the former. On the basis that when there are no good choices, take the least awful and do everything you can (thank you to my few, but very kind neighbours) to protect squirto from hearing/seeing the worst of it.

My child has been left with an unusually strong reaction to a raised voice. Which is not great news for an Italian. But a lot better than it could have been. I hate that I had to play Russian roulette with him as the stake. I don't feel like we "won" the gamble. But I'm grateful for all the other bullets dodged. I owe my neighbours a shit ton. Their good will stood in place of the state, between my child and more significant damage, because the state would only ever intervene, with pointed fingers, when repercussions were too late to undo.

When we talk of abandonment it seems such a simple, black and white choice. With an obvious right answer.

We were legally deprived of a genuine choice. And maybe it was all the furious pushing against the legislation that bound me in place that makes me believe that, given an alternative, I would have made DH walk away. But perhaps those with the legal option to walk away are just as tightly restrained. Not by law, but by the black/white, public perception of abandonment, as outlined above ?

Years on MHI forums for families and carers did not convinced me that the quality and availability of services and resources is all that better anywhere else. Nor did it convince me that, save for me and DH, some higher power is picking out people destined to cope with ill relatives based on their evident ability to do so. If not some actual superpower that makes them extra resiliant and special "not sleep needing" people. Likewise I learned that the situation did not have to rise to the extremes of MIL's condition for the emotional, mental and physical outcomes to be much the same.

In terms of abandonment, perhaps there needs to be a recalibration that has a more nuanced vision of whose wellbeing can be factored in as an equal priority. MIL was ill from a very early age. She was exorcised frequently. Subjected to horrendous, useless, humiliating and painful "treatments" at a time when psychiatry was barbaric. Her family held all the power, she had none. Her family's feelings, needs and beliefs were paramount. Hers were irrelevant. They were seen as fully fledged humans. To all intents and purposes, she was seen as "sub". It is a very very very very good thing this is no longer the case.

But... we cannot go so far in the other direction that we forget that the people around the mental ill person are humans in their own right. And just as entitled to their dignity, autonomy and a voice in deciding what their personal limitations are/are not.

If it is considered morally wrong (quite rightly IMO) to strip a mentally ill person of the above (via the law, or public opinion), then so too it must be wrong to strip people of those elements because of their relationship with a mentally ill person. Either those things matter, or they do not. While many places do not strip family members of them via the law, a great many places appear to do so by framing providing care and oversight as a black and white choice, made by villains and heroes.

I have no issue with the word abandon being used. But I think there needs to be some readjustment in terms of introducing shades of grey into the current understanding of what is the obviously right, and obviously wrong choice to make when abandonment is on the table and starts to look increasingly attractive.

Or

The varied peoples of the world can rise up and howl (plus throwing things at them if it will help) at governments far and wide for the shitty shitty job they have been doing for decades in terms of MH provision, all of them stripping away funding to the point that "resources and services" are more gaping, black hole than safety net.

One of things that still sticks in my craw is the frequency with which the average member of the public would become (naturally enough, given the circs) outraged, or scared enough to yell at me for "not DOING something".

When deprived of sleep, the impulsivity aspect of my ADHD had a field day. It was not unknown towards the end for me to yell back "I might be able to if YOU LOT DID SOMETHING instead of accepting cuts to the bone in mental health care" (which often came out garbled cos my second language is not fab when I'm stressed and knackered, but at least I knew what I meant.)

But maybe I shouldn't have it in my craw. Until MIL came into my life, I just assumed that if an illness got bad enough, if the symptoms caused behaviour extreme enough to cause distress, "the system" dropped neatly into place to pick up the slack. Maybe without the bells and whistles that it should have (cos, cuts), but in terms of the basics, it would be there. It took five years of looking askance (and thinking we were being picked on and left out for some obscure reason) before I finally accepted that "the system" I was looking to to save her and us, was a figment of my imagination.

Given that, kind of daft of me to think that your average person could possibly know, or comprehend just how alone you are when MHI strikes.

How could they know that the sinking and swimming is more about spluttery dumb luck (or lack thereof), than judgement and asking for help in a timely fashion.

No wonder they judge us and find us sorely wanting. In many cases I think they genuinely believe that given the circumstances "somebody is doing something" and we are just not nice people, making an Everest Replica out of a molehill. Trying to shirk the few responsibilities we ourselves have decided to take on, as is right and proper.

slenderisthenight · 06/11/2016 13:55

The anger stage is an early one in grief

Research has shown otherwise. The stages don't progress like that/

YelloDraw · 06/11/2016 13:59

Batteriesallgone I hope you mum doesn't think that :-( You (and everyone!) deserves happiness! Flowers

slenderisthenight · 06/11/2016 14:02

Gosh ipost. How utterly, crushingly dreadful for you Flowers.

I don't think your experience describes the Guardian writer's journey but you have my full sympathy. It's very sad and wrong that you were expected to be able to cope.

OurBlanche · 06/11/2016 14:05

Sorry Bill, I am going to c+p your post, so I don't miss a bit.

I don't dispute that a lot of people do have feelings like this after suicide. But as Gloria said, they don't publish it in national newspapers. Many columnists and other writers do. It is part of their psyche. Many bloggers do to! I don't see anything wrong with it. There are all sorts of public ways to share experiences. Onlookers have the choice to take part or move on. Many articles offend me. I either ignore them or admit they offend me and occasionally explore why! That is what this thread is doing, isn't it?

Plus, it's several years after the event. The anger stage is an early one in grief which would be expected to be over by now, possibly even the blame stage. The stages don't really hold up scientifically. And even when they were thought to they weren't linear, so anger may have been early or late, or both, recurring!

But yes. During that 'stage' I could not have written or spoken about how I felt. I felt embarrassed, humiliated by own lack of compassion. Even now, 16 years later, it is only because I have read such pieces, had soem support, had similar conversations with DH that I can say, out loud, publicly, here and in real life, that I absolutely hated MIL for her actions. I failed, for quite some time, to separate the individual from the illness.

And even when people are very angry at someone who has committed suicide, I think most of them would be able to pull out at least one good quality or happy memory. Yes, but maybe not for some time. Some may never have those feelings at all!

BILs approach was to beatify his DM. 16 years on he is still stuck in that emotion and still has not really moved on, accepted the real reasons for her death. He continually says "Only the food die young" "She didn't deserve to die like that / live with him (SFIL)" He chooses to ignore her very real mental and physical health issues, including a fresh diagnosis that gave her months to live and those months would have been horrendous, debilitating. He is very damaged by it and doesn't seem to have any way of changing his emotional response, his understanding of her actions. He just blames, blames, blames.

DH and I have a great many happy memories of her, but we also have many memories of her that are not so happy. We can see how she got trapped in a the drink/drugs (prescription)/ abuse and MH spiral as she did. We can now understand it, warts and all. Who do you think is the happier, the healthier?

He paints her as a monster. In fact she was little more than a child and clearly very damaged Yes. And I would describe MIL as an absolute monster, fucking terrible mother, surrendered wife, shit human being, nasty alcoholic, emotionally abusive, emotionally scarred and scarring. In short there is a version of her who is utterly vile. That was the only version I had of her for a while. DH too.

We talked about it, out loud. The Family Liaison Team offered some support, which I took. Which is how I was first told that my feelings towards her were normal. That I should allow myself to think such things without feeling shame and embarrassment. But back then, pre-internet chat rooms and online newspapers, there was no external verification of this. I met no one who could speak to me from personal experience.

Articles such as this one are hard reading. But for some, not all, some readers, they are a positive affirmation of their own grief, their own humanity. They are a promise that you are not eternally damned for having had such horrible thoughts!

It is those people, like me, who are trying to say "Please, don't negate me, abrogate my experience". I accept your perspective. Please accept mine!

DioneTheDiabolist · 06/11/2016 14:07

The author's thoughts are his own. I'm glad they are no longer private and I have recommended reading this article to a number of people.

This thread isn't private. And what I find interesting is the need of some posters to berate other alive people for experiencing normal emotions. Something that this grandfather has not done.

ItShouldHaveBeenJess · 06/11/2016 14:10

slender. I agree. In my situation, I think it was the losing of two people very close to me in different circumstances that caused my rage. My dad became ill very suddenly (sepsis) and I sat byhis bedside and watched him fight to stay alive. My best friend chose to end it, equally suddenly. I never felt angry at my dad, but I felt angry with my friend. I don't believe there is a grieving 'process' at such; I believe there is confusion, denial, hurt, anger and depression in varying degrees for a long time after the event.

slenderisthenight · 06/11/2016 14:10

No dione. This grandfather berates his deceased daughter for emotions beyond her control. That's not half as bad.

slenderisthenight · 06/11/2016 14:10

deceased granddaughter

MarshaBrady · 06/11/2016 14:10

On the it shouldn't be published angle, that's where I think we benefit, that it is published. We are not good at talking about these things, and that's before we recognise it's messy, painful and there's no correct version.

The article is worth it for the thread where people have extended kindness and understanding and others have (bravely) shared personal experiences.

slenderisthenight · 06/11/2016 14:13

Flowers jess

I have recently lost almost all my female family members through a couple of unrelated occurrences that were nothing to do with choices made by them. I'm surprised by my fury. If they had chosen to go, I'm sure it would be much worse.

fancyknittedstuff · 06/11/2016 14:19

Batteriesallgone Thanks

"This article for me triggered that sense of profound loneliness. Not being good enough at being her daughter to perform childhood - to perform my whole life - according to the standards of my family. Being weighed and measured and found wanting."
I totally get this. Not because I have experienced anything remotely similar but nonetheless. Yo udon't need a poster on MN saying this but I would like to anyway: everybody deserves to feel happy and safe and the fact that you have overcome your obstacles or some of them is all the more credit to you and your strength and insight. Thanks

toomanypetals · 06/11/2016 14:21

I'll start by saying that I absolutely understand anger in grief.

My mum was Schizophrenic, adopted me, committed suicide when I was barely out of childhood.

However, I think this piece is deeply troubling and it's not because he is angry.

To me, it reads like a character assassination. There's a calculated rhythm to it. I'm also uncomfortable with the power dynamic between writer and deceased.

Male;female. Adult;child. There's a responsibility he should have in his position and he fails that spectacularly.

In fact, this article reads like the disregarding of that poor woman's boundaries, she probably suffered through her life. There's a sneering contempt barely contained; it doesn't sound authentic. It reads like a novel with a very unreliable narrator.

I wouldn't trust a word he says and I would bet there are family secrets buried with the character I truly feel sorry for. The deceased. Barely out of childhood when she felt so bleak and unwell she took her own life.

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