Cost of University 2017

[janmack23]

D1 is applying for Uni for Sep 2017 soon, no1 child -so confused and frightened about funding. Was an associated Med Occ with bursary but of course with my luck that's now gone, but I am struggling with how she or we can afford to let her go. Earnings are a bit above £50k on a good year but we have other kids at home, obviously don't claim benefits but after student accommodation costs (which won't be covered by student maintenance) it means we'll have to find money we haven't got to pay for her to just eat and live and there is nothing out there. Can some one explain how we can give her money we haven't got.

Some universities offer bursaries, and there are other organisations that also offer scholarships for particular groups of students. Really worth looking into this.

She could try using the Scholarship Hub

annielouise
I'd like to see the statistics
as there are huge differences between degrees and universities.

I've said to my kids (and this is very relevant to the OP)

If the course your child is doing is not in the top ten universities for that subject in the country, you are wasting your time and money.

If your child is academic, they should aim for a "world top 200" university
or not bother

The UK is producing dozens of kids with utterly useless degrees based on too low A levels
those kids will never earn enough to pay off their debts so it will just result in higher taxes and worse housing opportunities
(as student debt is treated as a 9% cut in salary for mortgages)

OP
If your kid is bright and motivated, pick a degree with a single word title, go for the highest ranked Uni you can and go for it

otherwise, look at going straight into work and doing professional qualifications part time

In the UK we have quality assurances for higher education (QCA, QAA etc). All universities have to have their curricula scrutinised to have accreditation. Exams are sent out to external examiners for assessment etc etc.

Let's compare this to Holland. In Holland curricula and exams are written by individual lecturers. There is almost no scrutiny of curriculum content. There is no external scrutiny of assessment material. The actual system of education is flawed in this respect, but of course there are still some very good lecturers who provide good material.

Now Holland has set up a number of reasonable/good English language degrees at university colleges attached to its research universities. These are mostly to make money but the degrees are OK. (We can debate how they compare to the UK but they are respectable degrees.) Some universities such as Groningen have switched many of their regular degree programmes into English, so again OK degrees.

However, there are also many low tier institutions which do not have university status in Holland that now offer "degrees" taught in English. These institutions are widely advertised to UK parents without admitting anywhere that e.g. the "Hogeschool van Amsterdam" is not an accredited university - it's even given a name like the "Amsterdam University of Applied Sciences" rather than the "High School of Amsterdam" (English translation of Dutch name).

If posters on this thread are confident of telling the difference between Dutch courses, great. But there have been many MN threads where parents have not known the issues involved.

And saying that academics can't possibly know about the European universities is ridiculous: this is our day job. We do know about different countries' HE systems and quality checks, even if we don't know about each individual course.

So you admit there are some good courses to find if - as I've said about three times now - you're discerning

There are bursaries offered by universities but they are, in the main, means tested based on parental income. The OP has an income of £50K which would be unlikely to count her DD as a poorer student.
As with student loan calculations your outgoings and lifestyle are not taken into account, only income. Even those with more than one DC at uni get very little deducted for this (currently I think they knock off about £1000 of your income for the second and subsequent student you are supporting).

I would still much rather send my DC to top 20 UK universities than to most Dutch university courses. Teaching is unregulated and therefore much more variable than in the UK. I have known people teach science courses from popular science books instead to textbooks. Dutch courses do not select students on grades (or select only weakly) which implies that the curriculum content is dumbed down in many Bachelors courses, and thus a minimum of a Masters is required in most disciplines to be a reasonable candidate in the higher end of the job market etc etc.

I don't believe that most UK parents would be able to find out enough reliable information to make discerning decisions about foreign HE.

BTW I do not believe that any Dutch university undergraduate course comes anywhere near Oxbridge or top UK university courses in terms of quality, not even for departments which are ranked in the top 50 worldwide for research. Oxbridge/top UK university courses are remarkable value for money, when you consider how they compare to top US courses costing £40k+ per year.

But that is not what the OP was about. You might want top 20 and wouldn't settle for anything less but the OP is worried about funding her DD's university course so I chucked the idea of cheaper courses in Europe into the mix as a viable option. Not everyone can get into top 20 UK anyway. It's not about what you want; my posts have been in response to offering up another viable option for the OP to look in to pertaining to her situation.

Yes, the three kids I know say there were no set grades to get onto the courses - possibly good for some. Just because you're not good at A level it's too early to write you off completely. However, there was a selection process and one was given a number of where they were on the course - quite high up although not sure about the criteria. Of the total quite a lot drop out after first year, apparently normal over there. I don't know why or if that's just where they are, just what I've picked up from chatting to them. Also been told while easier to get in to you can get chucked off easily too. They have to attain a certain level in the first year otherwise out. Difficult to compare directly like for like with a UK course in terms of teaching. No one can categorically say the UK will be superior on everything so I think it's an option if you're discerning and do your research, and there's plenty of information out there. They are certainly not Mickey Mouse universities not to be touched with a barge pole in so sweepingly a way.

There was actually loads of easily accessible information for the three that I know. They're at well-rated universities. None of this Hogeschool van Amsterdam that you mention, which anyone with half a brain could surely realise is lower tier. As with anything, do your research. It could work out great.

Well obviously nothing compares to Oxbridge. Isn't that obvious? That's not what the OP is about.

annie
You are conflating points.
What I made clear is that a student should do a course that is in the top ten for that subject
be it physio or archaeology or planning or oceanography
secondary to that is that if a kid is in the higher grade bands it is worth looking at Universities in the Top200
rather than just one or two Universities that dominate a TV Quiz show and MN

OP will not get many of the bursary type supports
but the reality is that if her child will benefit, its still well worth the investment

I'm not the one conflating anything. If anything you are. I've mentioned cheaper courses as the OP's concern is money. You're the one going on about a top course being critical. Yes, you want the best but if money is a concern why rule out looking abroad? And the OP is about money being a concern. Personally I wouldn't suggest looking at anything top 200 but only top 100, which a lot of the European universities are, depending on the course obviously. It was a suggestion on a cheaper way to do it. Have a look. If nothing suits or it's not good enough then don't do it. There'll be some trade-off though.

As I said upthread not everyone can get on the top 10 courses over here. We don't know the OP's DD's academic standard. Why not look at courses in Europe that are a quarter of the price. What is there to lose if you do your homework?

And what value is a degree anyhow if UK employers don't recognise it, and can't benchmark it against UK degrees?

Another academic here who seconds what user7214 says. And who knows the systens in other EU countries.

In the EU, you get what you pay for. Here in the UK, we have higher fees than the rest of Europe (in England anyway) but the standard of teaching is far far higher, as is the "student experience" for undergraduates.

Absolutely not what I'm hearing Custard. How strange. I'm sure it depends on the university though. So many variables I don't know how you can compare the student experience given it's not homogeneous.

And I don't think you necessarily get what you pay for either. There are so many complaints about courses over here. I'm sure there are abroad but the UK isn't the idyll you make out. Value for money is not always there, even with those so called top universities. User said you can't measure the standard of teaching anyway . I kind of expected a bit more from so called academics. Honestly you all sound a bit narrow. I feel like saying reading the bloody question. The OP is worried about money - neither you, Talking or User have addressed this, yet you've all been quick to say how educated you all are .

Anyway I give up. None of you have taken the OP's situation into account. User is ranting on about top 20 and don't go for less (not pertinent to the OP), Talking got the wrong end of the stick about a point I made about graduate jobs and bizarrely accuses me of conflating when that's what she and User have been doing and now you're making sweeping statements. As if you're writing off the whole of Europe and the educated people there. Utterly bizarre. I'll leave you to it. If you and User are the standard of academics over here I'll be pushing for my two to widen their horizons abroad.

annie
The tuition fee part is a graduate tax - OP's child will sort that bit when they graduate.
The maintenance cost of kids at Uni is the list I posted
And for many parents it is not feasible to keep supporting them till they are 21

That cost will only go upwards if they are based abroad

If a kid cannot get into one of the top 10 in that subject, they really need to ask whether a degree is the right route to where they want to be

If you earn £50k you can afford to make up the shortfall between maximum and minimum loan.
You may choose to spend your money on other things expensive mortgage , car etc but it's a choice.

Annie - OP is not worried about fees. She is worried about maintenance. There is no access to maintenance loans for students studying in the EU, so how this will help I do not know.

Given that OP's dd is doing a healthcare course which will lead to accreditation with the relevant body, again studying in Europe will not give her this.

I, and others, are not saying all European degrees are low quality, or even most of them. But most of the ones taught in English are.

If a kid cannot get into one of the top 10 in that subject, they really need to ask whether a degree is the right route to where they want to be.

I agree that people should avoid lower tier universities, but top 10 in any given subject is a bit of a harsh cutoff.

You would, for example, exclude most of Southampton's courses which tend to be top 10-20 rather than top 10. (Engineering and a few other subjects are higher ranked.)

I think it's a balance of subject choice, institution ranking and career aim that is needed to decide whether a degree is worth it.

For some careers in law e.g. barrister you may well need to be at a top 5 university to get anywhere. To get a training contract you may need to be at a top 10 university since there is such a glut of law graduates in the market.

But for other subjects, such as physics, there are such shortages in the UK that you could take your pick of many great jobs with a degree from any top 20, even top 30, university.

(BTW by avoid lower tier I mean by subject, not by blocking out a whole institution. Many niche subjects with good career prospects are done very well by newer universities.)

Fair point. Then again some of the courses at Soton are space fillers IMHO

What scares me is friends of DDs who got C's and D's in their A levels doing courses that are way down the list and will end up regretting it.

AVOID HALLS!!!
Getting back to the original point - you can get much cheaper student accommodation than halls. A room in a shared house, with bills, in a handy location and in a reasonably nice condition, in a Northern city, could be got for £60 per week. A dive could be got for £45-50. Meanwhile uncatered halls will be at least £100 per week (and probably not as nice).

Accommodation is the biggest place you can save imo. You'll get a loan for the fees. If you can contribute £1000 per year, which you should be able to if your child isn't eating your food etc, and your child can earn £2000 per year, you can afford it.

Everyone gets an interest free overdraft as well for about £2000.

If she works for a year beforehand, and earns say £12000, she won't even need to work during the course or in the holidays.

She will have to live cheaply but that's all part of the fun.

Makes me laugh when people say that we'll never pay back the loans. A lot of people will pay more than what they borrowed in the first place, is just they'll never pay off the loan in full because it's increasing by 3.6% a year from the day you start studying.

truffle
the amount that was handed to Universities by the Government on behalf of students will not be repaid in half of cases.
Yes, students pay interest
but the other taxpayers are out of pocket for what they got and did not pay back

I'm not sure that private accomodation is necessarily cheaper either TBH . DS is at uni about as far north as you can get and still be in England , and his halls in his first year , were substantially cheaper than he is paying now for shared house . He's currently sharing a house with 4 others , and he pays £290 plus about 55 to cover utilities and broadband a month . We are in exactly the same position as the OP , so he works his ass off for Waitrose every holiday which gives him about £1000 , and we then top him up when we can , plus pay for his phone . Plus send the odd supermarket delivery .

He still seems to be living on pot noodles and pitta bread and tzatsiki though .

Jan, I haven't RTFT but our income and circumstances are very similar and my DS started at Birmingham University this year, so I will explain how it worked for us. You are right to be concerned, it was a huge and horrible eye-opener for us.

On an income of about 50k we, or rather he, gets a maintenance loan of £5091 a year. He was lucky in that he got his first choice accommodation, which is a self-catered complex walking distance from campus (Ashcroft in Pritchatts Park). This is the cheapest available university accommodation at Birmingham and is £3889 for the whole year except the summer holidays and he doesn't have to move out at Christmas or Easter. I think it equates to about £92 a week, but on the plus side, he has no regular transport costs. From the loan this leaves a surplus of just £100 a month to live on, which is not enough, so we top this up with £300 a month from our own money. This is working out quite well and if anything is a bit too much. We find it manageable, just, but with DS2 just 2 years younger I have no idea how we will afford it then.

The other shock we got was when on results day 18 August, amid the celebrations, when the accommodation offer email arrived, we found that we had to pay £550 upfront to secure it even though he got no loan money until 26 September. I guess this is in the small print somewhere but I hadn't realised it. Then the rest of the £3889 is split into 3 termly instalments, a few weeks after the loan money, which also comes 3 times a year So the loan money came on 26 Sept and we had to pay £1113 on 1 November by direct debit.

I agree you can probably get non-university accommodation cheaper, BUT it does detract from the whole fresher experience, plus (so far) uni accommodation has been completely hassle-free, no bills, warm, hot water, launderette, and no transport costs. And no landlord hassle.

I was so relieved when he got his first choice accommodation, because there is no guarantee at all you'll get what you apply for and some of his friends were allocated very luxurious en-suite rooms at an extortionate cost. So you have to keep that in mind too.

Some other snippets of advice: avoid London completely. Costs are much higher. If poss choose somewhere not too far from home as train fares even with a railcard are ridiculous, and petrol costs are high too (I'm talking here about taking/fetching at the start and end of term, coming home for the weekend etc). The realistic prospects or working during term time will depend on the course. My DS is doing a subject where they have weekend assignments and they've just been away on a trip for a week, so any employer would have to be very flexible.

Anyway, hope that helps. Good luck.