To think this is a ridiculous use of detention?

[oldbirdy]

Ds (year 8) got detention today. He was 3 minutes late for school. This was the first time he has been late; he goes with a friend and the friend's mum hadn't realised the car would need de-icing. I assume this is done kind of zero tolerance but to me it devalues detention as I have had to tell ds it doesn't matter, and he thinks it is stupid. I would have wanted detention to make him feel a bit ashamed of himself and for something that was significant. If he was very late, or had been late a number of times, fair enough...

We only deal with chronic lateness this way. We have dreadful roads in our area and often various contract buses are late. However, with how our school day is structured, there are twenty minutes between the start of registration and the first lesson. So the 'little bit late' doesn't impact on lessons. This may be different in other schools.

Explain to him that it's because the teachers want to concentrate on teaching and learning. They have the rule because punctuality is important to the school ethos and they just don't have time to see if his story checks out. If he were a little late because he messed up, would the detention have been deserved? What if he were deliberately a little late every single day because he found out that the school didn't care that much about whether he was there on time or not?

Institutionalisation is no fun to be a part of, but this sort of nonsense is understandable from the lens of "what would happen if they let this minor shit slide?"

(I hate zero tolerance stuff but I prefer it to the alternative which can be a free-for-all where students are treated differently depending on teacher whim, preference and energy levels)

Personally I have never ever worked in a job where you get 'docked pay' for being three minutes late. what rubbish.
As for all those saying 'ooh he has to follow the rules' well that is what the Germans thought when Hitler was in power.
Sheep.

Exactly, Brat.

That sounds a much more sensible approach, doctor.

If a school repeatedly carried out draconian punishments for minor offences I would look at moving schools, as this approach seriously undermines pupils who are generally well-behaved and thoughtful. May as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb. Also it seems to be emblematic of sausage-factory academies lining up kids for sausage factory jobs where they are docked pay for running late.

I was very well-behaved and keen at school but if the school had ridiculous rules about detentions for minor issues I'd have become subversive and make sure I got detention for something worthwhile.

I think my school is sensible about these things. Not all parents do. We have parents currently complaining about a detention (minor trigger but multiple offences), who claim their son has rarely been in trouble. To them rarely is 5 visits to see head of year in year 7 and 3 the following year. The norm in our school (and indeed most schools) is the parents never being called in!

Sounds like DC's school - instant detention for even the most minor first offence by a well behaved child. It doesn't work. Behaviour in this school is appalling as it's no deterrent for badly behaved children (of which there are many sadly) whereas the well behaved kids live in fear of this Gestapo regime!

The fact that the other Parent went in to explain, proving that it wasn't the boys' fault, shows that the member of staff was incapable of using common sense and discretion. What does that teach kids?

Lastly, to those saying that such a regime is to prepare them for work, I disagree. I've never come across such a policy in a workplace and I've had a LOT of jobs!

Whatever happened to "order marks" and warnings? Why chop off heads instantly? I do agree with this approach seriously undermining the well-behaved kids; I had huge resentment at junior school about group punishments (different situation, I know, but same principle). I used to make a nuisance of myself in small but subtle ways because of them.

While I do think threats should be followed through, I do think sensible ones should be made in the first place. I remember the resentment of being told off for something that wasn't my fault (one teacher waffling on at the end of a lesson, which made us late for the next).

I agree with the school. If the class are all just about settled then people start waltzing in 3 - 5 minutes late everyday then it disrupts a lesson. If there's no punishment then everyone will start coming in 'just' 3 minutes late taking even more time to settle the class, minutes becomes 8 minutes, becomes 15 minutes .....

Also IMO it is comparable with a job, except in a workplace you get paid in cash for your time, in a school you get paid in something far more valuable, a free (in most circumstances) education - something that many people in other countries would give anything for.

Some real overreactions to the very idea of a detention on this thread, as if it's akin to capital punishment. Move schools? Great idea. Send your child somewhere where lateness is tolerated along with other minor infractions, and the only children in detention are those who have persistently disrupted every lesson your child has. I can't think what impact that might have on your child's results...

As for all those saying 'ooh he has to follow the rules' well that is what the Germans thought when Hitler was in power.
Sheep.

Godwin's Law!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

A very different situation to wilful or persistent lateness.

Yes it is but where do you draw the line? How many times can a child be late? How many times a term? How many minutes late can they be?

And persistent lateness is often down to factors other than the child, it can indicate problems at home or a reason a child does not want to be in school.

Unfortunately there are casualties.
Unfortunately the only system that allows schools to be hot on when a child/parent needs support is to log everything.

Late detentions are usually issued by teachers on the gate in the morning, often senior staff. Two children arriving at 2 mins late cannot be given different treatment.

I also think the form of detention is important. One place a I worked anyone who was late had to take a card to the teacher who was teaching them, the card had on how many minutes late they were and the student was expected to make that time up with the teacher.

This means that whatever they have missed, and registration is often when important information is given out can be addressed in the student's time.

It's fair even when it isn't the child's fault because being late does mean a child has missed something

monkeysox

Even one minute late results in 30 minutes detention here. An hours pay would be docked in a job if employees are late

Which has taught me the lesson that if I am going to be a minute late, I might as well 59 minutes late.

Tennis, anyone?

Kids need to learn to be punctual but it's no good punishing kids for things that are not in their control.

The analogy with adults does not wash - if you are always late because the train is late you have to start getting an earlier train to build in delay time.

I would raise it with the school and ask them what they wanted to achieve with it. Especially as it was the first morning (in the south at least) that we had frost so people would not have been expecting it.

How many times can a child be late?

When I was at school it was three times per term.

So if you were late three times in one term you were put in detention.

If detentions are constantly been dished out for minor offences - e.g being a couple of minutes late, tie too short, etc then what punishment is given for more serious offences?

When I was at school detentions were given for minor offences however what I did notice was that more serious offences were often just ignored completely.

Like when a boy decided it would be hilarious to pick his chair up and hit me with it right in front of the teacher. Teacher simply told him to not do that again. Later on the same teacher gave me a right bollocking for not having my shirt tucked on and gave me detention for it

Not that I minded of course because I actually quite enjoyed detention. It meant I got to stay behind and avoid being followed and harassed on the way home. Plus we usually just sat in silence for the whole detention which was my idea of heaven. A whole hour alone with my thoughts. Bliss

" only children in detention are those who have persistently disrupted every lesson your child has"

Not IME. When i was at school i remember "allowances" being made for a kid like this because he was a foster child even though he bullied me and another girl and made our lives a misery (one of his fave tricks was to spit bits of bitten off biro into our hair in science class) as well as disrupt lessons. And he wasnt the only disruptive one who was let off.

While other kids who were late on the odd rare occasion were moaned at or moaned at for not having correct PE kit every now and again.

YY Virgin.

I was eventually told i could leave school ten to 15 minutes early and given a pass to do so because of being bullied rather than the school sort it out at source.

I won't be moving school over this!

I think I handled it the best I could, using it as a life lesson about the perils of relying on other people, I didn't tell him I thought the school was being silly as I have no wish to undermine them. However I do dislike this sort of blanket punitive approach. The problem is it doesn't really work as for kids like my Ds he had no control over being late on this occasion so didn't 'respect' the detention but has shrugged it off, so I doubt he's learned anything much except to be less fearful of detentions. If the school wanted to improve his punctuality based on the reason he was late, they should be making threats towards the adults involved if anyone as the driver is the person who could actually change things (not necessary in this case!)
For kids who are persistent offenders as someone up thread says this could be because they have issues at home around care or organisation, in which case a punitive response in school doesn't address that, or they are late because they don't care in which case constant detentions are again not personalised enough to tackle the reasons for their disaffection, they just respond to behaviour without addressing it.

So yeah, not a big fan of blanket zero tolerance policies.

And yes it was first icy day and caught a lot of parents out.

Jesus what a depressing thread. Kids should be given unfair punishments to teach them thst life is unfair ? Is this for real ?

People are so browbeaten and used to being treated like dirt at work they think kids should be too?

Also. I have worked in many many places and never been punished or fin ed for being late.

Op if you choose not to side with your son against the school what are you teaching him about injustice ?

Teenagers feel injustice keenly and it's important they can evaluate decis ions by others.

I work in a school - if the children fail to be over the line (by school gates) when the bell goes they get an hours detention

It seems mean - however the children are never late.
Obviously there are a few who are late, but even repeat offenders are only once a week.
There are allowances for known big traffic issues nearby and there's a few students with issues we mostly let off (because they would rather they were in).

It's strict but it does work. I work the front desk, I've given out only 2 this week in a school of 900.

In dc school you get one for being late twice in a week. Are there different levels of detentions? Eg. 15 min breaktime, lunchtime, after school, HOY detention etc? If it's just a token break time one I'd tell him not to worry about it but take "bigger" ones more seriously.

Danica - 30 mins after school, so a 'proper' detention the same as he'd have got for unacceptable behaviour in class.

Has anyone worked in a job where an hour's pay would be docked for being a minute late? I'm not sure that's even legal.