To think Toby Young deserves scorn for this article?

[BowieFan]

Apologies for linking to the Daily Mail, but I've used a service that denies them advertising revenue: <a class="break-all" href="https://anonym.to/?www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3869182/Why-Lefties-misty-eyed-movie-romanticises-Benefits-Britain-says-TOBY-YOUNG.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">anonym.to/?www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3869182/Why-Lefties-misty-eyed-movie-romanticises-Benefits-Britain-says-TOBY-YOUNG.html

Aside from the basic errors (it's 100minutes long, not nearly 3 hours), it's just an awful article. The fact that Toby Young thinks everyone claiming benefits is a smoking/gambling/drinking loudmouth is just offensive. I'm shocked - not that it was published - but that he thinks his opinion is the opinion of everyone.

I'd love to see him survive on benefits. I wonder if he'd be saying the same things then?

The argument against Gp making decisions is that they're TOO familiar (ie friendly) with patients and were (supposedly) too eager to please. Not something I've ever known of a Dr, plus I hardly think they're going to jeopardise their entire career just so patients think they're 'nice'! Plus most GP'S I know have little patience (pardon the pun) for anyone who really is a malingerer/compo hound.

I'm not entirely convinced that who assesses in first instance is random, I've never known anyone be assessed by someone with the right training for the condition being assessed!

Which policies? This government was elected on a platform of balancing the books and austerity. And an EU referendum.
We've had the referendum. The architects of austerity have run away. Their replacements have admitted it wasn't really working and are watching the pound tank whilst doing very little except float and drop ideas like grammar schools. It and start planning for a Brexit that wasn't contemplated until 4 months ago.

graphista

Completely agree with you. There seems to be this myth pushed by the Tories that GPs are just giving sick notes to anyone who walks in the door, which isn't true. The reason they stopped letting GPs do it is because the GPs weren't denying enough people (probably because the people actually needed it).

I think you're right about the assessor too. I'm pretty sure that I've never had a client assessed by someone who was actually qualified in their health issue. If your claim is about mental health, they send you a physiotherapist. The reason is that someone without a qualification can't go as in depth and will just ask the standard questions.

user1471446905

The Government are killing people. The Government would rather an ill person dies than get their pittance of benefits.

I recommend you go here: www.calumslist.org and read about some of the stories there.

Also check out David Clapson's story, an ex-soldier who was Type 1 diabetic. Sanctioned because he missed an appointment due to not getting the letter. He died from kidney failure because he could not buy electricity to keep the fridge running that he needed to chill his insulin. The coroner reported that he had not eaten for days before his death.

DWP's response: "The removal of Mr. Clapson's benefits was fair and he was notified about it. If he had been in hardship, he could've applied for the hardship fund and if he qualified, he would have been paid in 14 days."

A man dying alone, with no money, a stack of CVs at his side. The government doesn't care. Welcome to Britain in 2016.

One way to deal with those who claim to be sick when they are not is what the private sector does - no sick pay for days 1 - 3 off and after that you are on statutory sick pay. It works very well.

As the state sector is currently so short of money it may be something we should introduced for more new public sector workers too although plenty will already be on that kind of a system as they will be self employed or contracted to third party contractors who perform the services.

The Tories are the party who care by the way. Those of us on their side will never convince those with strongly held views the other way but it is so. You don't care by spending money you don't have as by doing so you risk being able to keep those who need help in due course. It is like managing family money. It might appear really kind to take the children to the cinema every night and feed the lovely foods but if that means that for 3 weweks out of 4 they cannot eat you are have been a fool Ditto the over spending left wing - they aren't doing the morally right thing for the less fortunate of the nation. That is one reason the Tories won the last election as the people of the UK thankfully trust them more with ensuring we can keep the nation and its welfare state going.

Let us see who wins in 2020. I bet it will be the Tories. I hope so. I am sorry if that upsets the left wing but there it is. We can each hold our own opinions and politely set them out and all sides being very happy we live in a UK where we are allowed to express different views. That is not the case for every country on the planet sadly.

Bowie

All the DWP paperwork I've seen has a form a words in the initial refusal along the lines of 'the evidence of the appellant's GP/consultant is rejected as the GP/Consultant is making a medical assessment of the patient's health condition, and is not in a position to make a judgement on their fitness to work"

So it seems that relevant medical evidence is being routinely disregarded. It then goes to Tribunal where thankfully you get a neutral arbiter and medical professional who accept that a distinguished Professor of Medicine who has been treating the client for 10 years, knows a little more than some Maximus paramedic who say them for 20 mins, and failed to notice they were in a neck and back brace and in a wheelchair!

Many people in the private sector get sick pay.

The state sector bte is being artificially starved of money go read some Chomsky on the matter.

I wouldn't be so sure about he tories winning, there is a long difficult way to go till 2020. Oh and the tories only won a small majority last election, it's not like of the overwhelming mandates of the past.

Left wing over spending is a myth btw. George Osborne borrowed more money than everyou labour chancellor combined.

Brown ran two surpluses and until the crash had a deficit, having built lots of new schools.and hospitals, at the same level as he tories did in 1997.

Sorry me your analogies and analysis are incorrect.

"You don't spend money you don't have"?

Hmm, so why has the national debt gone up under Gideon and Call Me Dave?

As for the party that cares, I've never read so much shite in my life. The Tories do not care about you unless you're a white male millionaire who went to Eton. Sorry, but anyone who believes otherwise is brainwashed.

I am politically a lefty but I have a friend who is very centrist and even she doesn't believe the Tories are doing anything for the average person!

News flash: we can spend as much money as we want. You can't really bankrupt a country, you just default on debts. Frankly, if every country just refused to pay their debts, what exactly could the creditors do? Spoiler alert: nothing. If every country in the world said "Nah, we're not paying you back and whilst we're at it, your 'money' which only exists in 1s and 0s is now ours." there is not a single thing they could do about it.

It won't happen of course, but this myth that we have no money is hilarious.

If you are applying for PIP and ESA, you have a long-term serious health condition. It's not a case of if you cut 3 days' pay when they first fall sick, they'll take a paracetamol and struggle on! It's a completely different issue.

There are numerous stories like Mr Clapson's it is both heartbreaking and sickening. There's some interviews Mr loach has done regards the film and the research he did for it. He gives examples of people receiving sanctions because

They were taking their pregnant wife to hospital who'd gone into premature labour
They were admitted to hospital via ambulance and a&e following an accident

I think there was another who'd slipped into a diabetic coma, and a mother who was a few minutes late as her asd son had a meltdown too?

Re assessors it's also been my experience that they're less sympathetic to claimants suffering conditions they're unfamiliar with. The attitude to those of us with mh conditions is disgusting! Everyone I know claiming for that type of condition has received at least one comment that is a thinly veiled 'aye right! We're all stressed what makes you so special?!' type thing. If you dare to display a hint of a nervous smile, you can't possibly be depressed, if you dare to make eye contact, be able to hold a halfway decent conversation, basically if you're not appearing like a caricature of a bedlam patient you can't possibly be THAT bad!

Gordon Brown ran two surpluses by the way.

Me2017 I'm sorry that you believe the Tory myth that the poor and left wing are to blame for our debt, but they're not. It's bankers. The only reason the Tories aren't blaming the bankers is because they're best mates with them. Like I said, if you stop giving bankers and their "money" (which doesn't even exist in actual physical form) things they want, you'll soon find our debt will magically disappear.

graphista

My absolute favourite one (well, not favourite but you know what I mean) was a man who had a heart attack during his assessment. The nurse put down in her report: "Mr XXXX had a cardiac arrest during our consultation and did not complete the assessment. His benefit was stopped for failing to comply with the conditions of the assessment." I mean come on!

It is like managing family money. But it isn't really, is it?

Ditto the over spending left wing - they aren't doing the morally right thing for the less fortunate of the nation. This would suggest that you're not quite right there, either

Sorry, Bowie x post.

'If you are applying for PIP and ESA, you have a long-term serious health condition. It's not a case of if you cut 3 days' pay when they first fall sick, they'll take a paracetamol and struggle on! It's a completely different issue.' precisely! Me2017 (apt user name for a tory btw) I'm not claiming for a sodding headache/laugh! I'm in pain most days, I last left my home about 2 months ago (agoraphobia), just leaving my bedroom makes me anxious! 2 days ago I had non functioning legs for the first hour or so after waking due to spinal/nerve issues.

The Tories have only ever cared about their own (white wealthy/higher class males) it's clear in their history. As for allocation of funds, bull do they not have money for NHS/benefits/social care! They certainly find the money when they want it for bailing out bankers, cutting taxes for the already very wealthy, weapons and wars, MPs pay etc!

It's really not like managing family money. Maybe it's a bit more analogous if your family has a family business and a fuckton of investments but for the average family.
Anyway since Philip Hamond has himself said that they need to borrow to invest etc it appears your knowledge of policies isnt all that.

graph and new royal yachts. 100 Conservative MPs lobbying for a new yacht.

Ffs yachts!?! They really don't live in the same world as the rest of us! People are DYING and they're buying fucking yachts!!!!

graphista Oh yes, applicants with mental health problems do really badly, as they don't often present sympathetically (ie they get agitated).

But none of this is saving money, and commercial organisations are milking it! The problem is that private assessors get paid by the assessment, regardless of whether it's later overturned. So it's in their interests to churn out decisions, and there's no mechanism in place by the DWP to enforce any sort of standard of accuracy. The costs of appeals and tribunals for commercial failing are borne by the State (ie taxpayers).

They somehow manage to find enough money for their expenses, or enough money to spend £240m on free schools in areas where there were actually too many school places. Oh, they spent £5bn on the Work Programme as well, which turned out to be less effective than letting people carry on looking for work themselves. Universal Credit, which is awful and replaces a system that worked fine, is now going to cost us £15.9bn instead of the £2.2bn originally quoted.

The Tories are wasting money left, right and centre. For fuck's sake, nearly 45% of Tory MPs want a new bloody Royal yacht!

Don't forget 3bn on a top down reorganisation of the NHS that hasn't worked and nobody wanted.

'graphista Oh yes, applicants with mental health problems do really badly, as they don't often present sympathetically (ie they get agitated).' oh I know! I started to feel really anxious during an assessment and that meant for me I couldn't understand what the assessor was saying (as in it was like listening to a foreign language) so asked them to slow down and put in simpler terms and got this look and 'i think you're overreacting a bit'.

'But none of this is saving money' EXACTLY it's actually costing the country more! Now THAT'S insane! Appeals and court cases cost a fortune!

I find it astonishing that they get away with continually shouting about saving money, whilst all the time the downward pressure on costs is squeezing the problems out at the sides. In the manner of Eric Pickles sitting on a cream slice.
And other services are being pressed down on so nobody has the capacity to take care of the stuff that's spilling out.

smallfox2002

Who was it who said their £3bn top-down reorganisation of the NHS was akin to rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic as it heads towards an iceberg? That made me laugh