To think that my childminder shouldn't charge me for activities?

[Falcon1]

I already pay £7 per hour per child (2). On top of that I have to provide nappies and wipes, then I'm charged for any activity she takes the kids to. I can appreciate that if it's something expensive like soft play , then I should contribute, but surely playgroups should be included in the hourly rate? Particularly as it is her choice to take the kids to them. It's not a lot of money but it all adds up.

We pay 4.40 per hour for our childminder (cheshire) and that includes weekly toddler groups, play barns and trips to the zoo/big attractions during holidays!

Many CM don't charge extra, but factor in a small amount for trips out. TBH, most CM don't go on lots of expensive outings - it is mainly trips to a toddler group etc. The CM may well include it in the hourly rate, because it then gives them more freedom to decide what to do, on a more spontaneous basis, because they haven't got to ask parents if they are happy to pay for each little event.

So, if the weather turns out to be bad and the children can't play in the garden, a CM might take them to a toddler group and pay out for £2 per head. Another week, that might not be needed as weather is great and they spend time in the park. They probably have an idea of roughly how much they are spending like that on an average month....it can be factored into the charges and covered like that, or the CM might just see this as one of her 'costs' of supplying the service, much liKe having the heating on during winter days, or supplying craft materials.

In my experience, the more experienced CM tend to be clearer about all these kinds of issues. They have seen before what lack of clarity does. It causes tensions and they are open to be taken for a ride, as much as parents are. So, yes, in many ways childminding is quite informal and people often get on well with their CM and can feel a bit awkward talking about money.....but it is vital for positive relations into the future.

That makes sense Chocolate. I understand both sides.

I'm probably quite uptight and need too firm a grip on such things. I like transparency.

Transparency is definitely a good thing. It isn't a control freak thing. It's about clear agreements that everyone understands, so are on the same page. It promotes good relationships in business.

CM need to be clear and transparent and there are contract forms that most of them use, which help make sure everything is covered, so parents know exactly what they have to pay for and when. These contracts help CM get the correct amount of notice when someone leaves etc. They make sure everyone understands what the deal is regarding holiday taken by parents (do they pay whilst away or not) and holiday taken by the CM (if they still need to be paid, how much notice they give etc). They make clear how frequent payments are, what happens if someone is sick, how much notice will be given of changes to fees, who pays for/supplies nappies, wipes, meals etc. Plus they should also make clear if there are any regular activities attended (such as toddler groups) and if it is included/who pays and what the arrangements are for less regular trips. A good contract will cover almost every eventuality and certainly all of the bog standard ones....and the question of trips out is a standard one. There isn't only one answer as how this should be arranged (included in fee/not included) but the arrangement should be clear. If it's not in the contract, clarify - possibly in conversation and follow up with an email, so you have something in writing and also ask it be added to the co tract at point of renewal.

Really. Yes cms are required to provide early years framework which I think you mean by education?

However that can be completely free by using parks, libraries, sea side trips, shopping trips, museums, galleries and groups for cms and nannies that are very low priced.

I hope you don't peddle the myth that cms must let children watch ceebeebies while nurseries are all beacons of learning and education.!!

There are shit nurseries and childminders and brilliant of both.

Some excellent advice Chocolate wombat, thank you. I basically feel too awkward to bring things up but as you say, I now feel resentful! Will have to have a chat with her.

It is expensive as I posted before and if she's ofsted registered she should put these expenses to ofsted tax.

I paid for music and tumblr sessions as my mindeees loved them but I paid and expensed them. No way did I charge parents.

And I charged £4 an hour.

As with any child care read read and question the contract.

falcon

Bring it up. If you see no receipts she could be charging you and claiming back.

Hate this as it gives cms a bad name.

I pay £7 a hour for two!

Usually just youngest at £4 a hour but in school hols I pay for both and get a sibling discount of a £1

I've had two childminders, both £5.50 ph both incl food and snacks but I supply nappies and formula. Both included activities like toddler groups and soft play, occasionally there'd be bigger days out to zoo etc that we paid for but had plenty of notice and had option to keep child home that day if we didn't want them to go to the thing.

Ofsted tax?

I'm a registered CM and I don't charge for standard activities such as toddler group or the leisure centre but in the school holidays I do at least one 'big' trip to a farm or a museum centre or other location (one trip in the shorter holiday, two in the six week holidays). It's always somewhere with some educational value and I try to utilise things like Groupon, CM discounts, etc to get the best deal. Parents have to pay for these but I still provide the meals for the trips. I give plenty notice of the dates and costs. This is set out in my policies.

You need to check her policies, not her contract. She should have given you copies of her policies when you signed the contract as a standard contract clause is "I have read and understood the policy documents".

My sister's cm charged for things like that but she had a float of £10-20 and wrote in the back of the diary what it was being spent on

Falcon. I would definitely say there should be a written contract as good practice for the cm and parent. It is simpler to enforce and know what you agree. Just note that you can have a verbal contract so if you have verbally agreed to pay for playgroup separately that can be a contract and you'd need to re-negotiate if you want to change.

Big picture here!! :
If you are confident that your child is happy, cared for and safe AND your CM is making the effort to provide varied activities then surely that is good?
If the money really niggles you and it wasn't preagreed then by all means raise it ... What niggles me is people who want 'cheap' childcare!

With regards tax. If CM pays she can record it as a business expense, thereby making less profit, hence paying less tax.
She cannot do that if you paid.

However her accounts are none of your business so everyone saying "what if she's still deducting it as an expense?" - what if she is? You have no way of knowing without checking her books and you've no right to check her books. So it's a non-issue.

It should be recorded on your receipt/invoice alongside your fees though so that you have a record of what you've been paying , for example of tax credits ask for proof of your fees.

FC, it's not about the big picture at all.

I just need to know how much I'm paying.

fc301 - most people want 'cheap childcare' because they don't earn enough to pay out more for childcare than housing.

I'm shocked at how little people pay! £4.50 is below the minimum wage. My childminder changes £8.50 an hour and I feel guilty that I am paying her £3.50 less an hour than I pay my cleaner. Children are more important than laundry

I'll back my truck up a little, I'm not trying to offend anyone. Se17mama says it better x

Se17mama - a childminder isn't an employee and has more than 1 child at a time so this will make up what you consider a low wage. For 8.50 or more an hour I'd get a nanny to be honest.
Otherwise I would personally find it odd to have to pay on top based on cm's whims for the day. My cm charged abt 30pounds all in (exc nappies) incl activities!

Why is minimum wage relevant? If a childminder has 6 under 8s their income is going to be over minimum wage anyway.

What you pay a cleaner or builder or hairdresser is also irrelevant to childcare. I just paid someone £20 for 30 minutes work doing my nails, that doesn't mean I think my nails and 10x more important than my children.
The salary of an employed housekeeper might be equivalent to an employed nanny, but how can you compare the charges of a cleaner who does a couple of hours a week for you, and a childminder who charges for multiple children up to 50 hours a week?

For all those saying "for £7+ an hour I'd get a Nanny" do you actually know how much a Nanny costs?
I get paid £11 NET an hour (£38k a year gross, £14.60 ph gross) and my employers pay tax etc on top of that. Not to mention the employers rights and liability etc etc.

Very few nannies would work for £7 an hour. Typically it would be £10 per hour NET + for live out.

With a nanny you would have activity costs, travel costs and other not so easily calculated costs due to using your home.

Childminders can run their business as they like. They should though make their charges clear, so their clients know what they do and don't pay towards.

What I think is the issue here is that you were not expecting the cost or that you did know there would be some additional costs but didn't expect them to be at the level they are. Perhaps saying that you would like there to be a weekly/monthly cap on these additional charges may be something to suggest as that would then help you to know your maximum cost per week/month.

based on cm's whims for the day.

Activities are never based on whims. All of my activities have to be planned out in advance, for children aged five and under they have to be based around the EYFS

based on cm's whims for the day.

Activities are never based on whims. All of my activities have to be planned out in advance, for children aged five and under they have to be based around the EYFS, I need to be able to self-evaluate after each activity to see if I achieved my aims. When the activity is for multiple children it needs to take into account their various ages as well as which stage of the EYFS they are at, in accordance with any assessments and next steps planning for each individual child.

Yeah. Whims. Based your business on whims and you'll find yourself in trouble when Ofsted come to do their inspection.