to not want my 3 year old pray in nursery

[ChipmunksInAttic]

A little background: we are living in the UK for last 10 months or so. both my husband and I are not believers and actually have a distance to all religions, though we both have muslim background - we were raised in a muslim country.

DS who is 3 years old started pre-school a month ago. When we were having dinner last night, he asked me aren't we going to "put our hands together", which is what they do at preschool before their lunch apparently. Today just to make sure I asked the school what does it mean and they told me they are having a little prayer before lunch just to say thanks for the food.

This is an independent nursery and at the beginning we had stated that we don't want any kind of religious education however I am not sure how to handle this now. We kindly asked them to exclude DS from praying, but I don't think this is doable while all kids are doing the same thing.

Maybe there is no harm just saying thank you for the food, however I cannot really understand why they are doing this with just 3 year old kids. We want to raise our child with no religious doctrines until a certain age but is that even possible? Or is this just a cultural thing and we are overreacting?

I actually agree with children being given a religious education from the off.
When they get to about 10 years old there are very few who decide to believe or take it further.
There are too many parents who would close this off entirely, not giving their child/ren the opportunity, because they don't believe themselves.

I was brought up with christian belief, it certainly hasn't turned me into a bible basher trying to push it onto others, and I don't particularly believe, nor attend church services.

Wow, I wouldn't be happy if my son's preschool had him learning to pray. So definitely yanbu. That said, there may not be much you can do about it, other than find a new nursery. If it was me, I would speak to the nursery about it, not to ask that he be excluded (that's too hard for him) but to make the point that many people, whatever their background, are not comfortable with this. Possibly they might be able to tone it down by talking more about being thankful and glad to have food, rather than talking about 'god in heaven'. Other than that, all you can do is tell him that religion is just a story, an important story about the importance of being a good person, but still just a story, and talk about different people understanding it differently. On the local CofE school, ask other parents for gossip as much as you can. They can vary hugely. In my area there are 2 CofE schools I'd be delighted to have my son at, and 2 I would never allow him in (one says on its website "we are a middle class school" and the other has a teacher who told my friend's son that dinosaurs weren't real). Most are fine but there are quite a few that shove too much religion in.

People say children should be able to choose for themselves but how will they ever know about religion if they don't hear about it? I bet you all give your children easter eggs and celebrate Christmas... ?

Sigh, As many others have said, I think most of us have no objection to children learning about religion, we simply don't want Christianity (and Christianity alone) presented as fact. And Easter and Christmas both lengthily pre-date Christianity, and are widely celebrated as secular festivals by non-Christians.

Yabvu. How on earth do you think they could do this without actively shutting your son out of the huddle as they eat? Even if they're lovely to him, which I'm sure they would be, he will know he's somehow being forced to stand out from his peers whether he likes it or not. Why not let him choose? If it bothers him that's one thing, but if he likes it - which it sounds like he does - then that's another.

Op, you had a religious upbringing but are obviously a fundamentalist atheist now, so it obviously didn't shape your views and I wonder what is there to fear? Similarly, some people are brought up to be a staunch atheists and turn to God as an adult! It strikes me that if it's going to happen it's going to happen whether you like it or not. That's the right way, each person choosing their own path. Faith is a very individual thing. So you might as well not force your poor child to be ostracised right from the beginning of his little life.

Gwen I would hazard a guess that the suggestion that prayer is a meaningless ritual would be pretty offensive to most religious people. It certainly is not a meaningless ritual in the eyes of the law of many countries which protects the right of people to pray, imposes obligations on employers to accommodate prayer, protects religious buildings whose purpose is worship and prayer, etc. If it is indeed a meaningless ritual though then I would object to it on educational grounds - why is the school wasting my child's time?

As for my school years I was brought up in a Greek Orthodox country where religion was, and still is, entrenched in the state. There was no possibility to opt out of religious services at school unless you were of a different faith, atheism was not recognized as a valid option. I don't to think back very hard to be filled with disgust.

a fundamentalist atheist just when you think you have heard every possible stupidity...how exactly could one be 'a little bit' of an atheist? "I don't believe in god, but I am not very strict about it, so when the urge gets me I believe for a few hours" kind of thing?

"I would hazard a guess that the suggestion that prayer is a meaningless ritual would be pretty offensive to most religious people."

Maybe so, but it's still true (imho). That's how it's seen at school.

"a fundamentalist atheist just when you think you have heard every possible stupidity...how exactly could one be 'a little bit' of an atheist? "I don't believe in god, but I am not very strict about it, so when the urge gets me I believe for a few hours" kind of thing?"

You can be an atheist, but not be bothered about other people being religious or you can be a militant atheist who goes around criticising religions all the time.

youwhoo I'm an atheist and I 'celebrate' Easter and Christmas in a totally non Christian way. No mention of god or Jesus. Is it hard to imagine? For Easter we go to Easter egg hunts, and we have Easter eggs. For xmas we go to the santa grotto and pantomime. We also celebrate Halloween with scary costumes and trick or treat. Today they went out to a half term thing dressed as witches listened to a witch telling stories and a wizard broomstick lesson. We also celebrate mid autumn festival and Chinese New Year. Non of these need to involve a specific Christian god. And Easter eggs and bunnies are from Paganism isn't it?

I would be seriously pissed off about that. In fact, I wouldn't be able to carry on sending my child to a preschool that insisted on forcing them to pray.

It sounds more like they are just being thankful for their food

But who are they saying thanks to? The staff members for serving them? Nope! They're instructed to "put their hands together". They're being made to say Grace, whether they understand what they're doing or not.

And don't even get me started on the obligatory daily act of worship in schools.

We're are not a religious family. Both DC went to a nursery that said a form of grace at lunchtime, which basically constituted saying thank you to the cooks for the food and saying they were grateful. No religious connotations, no hands together praying.

Why not just talk to the management and see why, as an independent nursery, they are introducing religion and what other religions they are also introducing. Ask if it's possible that the children gives thanks without prayer and without any mention of god. Perhaps a little song? They may be happy to consider it.

applecarts where have I once mentioned christianity? I haven't. And yes, Christmas and easter are religious stories. So I do think it's hypocritical.
And most of the responses that I've read in this thread are against them learning about religion.

Gwen no one is criticizing religions (well apart from you who thinks prayer is a meaningless ritual), I am arguing that religious observances which are at odds with the family's moral beliefs have no place in school. I have no problem with religions as such, I do not believe in them and I want my child to learn about them as they learn about other facts, e.g. Some people believe x others believe y. I do not want my child to participate in religious rituals of worship. I assume a Christian would not want their child to participate in a satanistic ritual of worship either, nor would a Muslim want their child to be taught to perform the sign of the cross, nor would a pagan would want their child to fast for Ramadan, nor a Jew would want their child to practice white magic etc.

Maybe there is no harm just saying thank you for the food
I might get slated for saying this but it really pisses me off that the kids are being taught to thank God for the food they are being given when it is actually (usually) their parents who have gone out and worked hard to be able to afford to buy the food.

Another one that really gets me is when people have a life-saving operation and people say thank God for saving you.

No, just no, how about the surgeon that actually performed the operation, how about the doctors and researchers that studied for years to find out how to use surgery to cure the problem or how about the nurses who made sure that you were cared for and looked after you.

yoowhoo Christmass and Easter are pagan religious stories, culturally appropriated by Christianity, if we want to be factually correct.

I'm not against people celebrating Christmas and easter (I do!) And yes you may be doing it in your own way. But it is a religious festivity.

booboo I never said Christmas and easter were or weren't christianity. Applecarts said it wasn't.

I was responding to her by saying that I had not mentioned christianity but religion as a whole.

Presumably you will all be withdrawing your small DCs from the Christmas parties and Nativity play.
Learning about loving, caring and sharing won't do your kids any harm and when they're older they will make up their own minds what to believe.

I was brought up with christian belief, it certainly hasn't turned me into a bible basher trying to push it onto others

Except you say, I actually agree with children being given a religious education from the off.

Which in my book is pushing it onto others because you're advocating it for everyone, religious or not.

I wouldn't be keen on this, because religion is the single most toxic thing human beings ever invented.

This. Religion has a hell of a lot to answer for, both in the past, and right now. It should be playing no part in a child's day to day activities at school, and it's time this country ditched the pretence of being a predominantly Christian one.

Speak to them.
We had this with nursery. They were very apologetic, though tried to claim they were saying a version of grace that went "thank you _ for food we eat" which blatantly wouldn't scan or make any sense, and wasn't what DS came home singing. They did agree to just thank the chef on DS's days and I believe them that they did that as we didn't hear him singing it again.

If it's any help IME there is nothing more likely to put a child off religion than having to 'do' it at school and attend cub church parades. 'Boring and daft' apparently (not my words). We discuss these things openly, dissect the stories and beliefs that have been related and I have encouraged my DCs to decide for themselves whether to believe the stories or not, on the basis that being overtly anti as a parent is a sure way of encouraging a zealous religious rebellion in the teenage years.

I wouldn't be happy about this either. My son goes to an independent nursery and they don't have 'grace'.

I have yet to experience what the primary schools near me do. But I've got lots of ideas from this thread as to how to explain it! We too are non believers.