to not want my 3 year old pray in nursery

[ChipmunksInAttic]

A little background: we are living in the UK for last 10 months or so. both my husband and I are not believers and actually have a distance to all religions, though we both have muslim background - we were raised in a muslim country.

DS who is 3 years old started pre-school a month ago. When we were having dinner last night, he asked me aren't we going to "put our hands together", which is what they do at preschool before their lunch apparently. Today just to make sure I asked the school what does it mean and they told me they are having a little prayer before lunch just to say thanks for the food.

This is an independent nursery and at the beginning we had stated that we don't want any kind of religious education however I am not sure how to handle this now. We kindly asked them to exclude DS from praying, but I don't think this is doable while all kids are doing the same thing.

Maybe there is no harm just saying thank you for the food, however I cannot really understand why they are doing this with just 3 year old kids. We want to raise our child with no religious doctrines until a certain age but is that even possible? Or is this just a cultural thing and we are overreacting?

I'm amazed. If it's non-denominational, there should be no collective acts of worship, which this constitutes

Even non-denomonational schools in the UK are obliged to have a 'daily act of worship'.

There is no such thing as a truly non-denominational education in the UK unless you withdraw from religious elements. Obviously how much, and how they do the daily act varies from school-to-school, but all UK state schools are Christian.

TBH I would just explain in as child friendly way as possible that some people believe in God and some don't and that we don't but at school we give thanks before eating because they people that believe in God want to and it does no harm to join in.

I wouldn't be happy with it either but I was raised with no religion and we still did the hymns and a bit of ABBA in assembly and would sometimes pray for those in need if there was a disaster or something that had been all over the news etc. My mum told me just to think of it as sending good thoughts and if there was a God then we're helping and if we're right and there isn't, there is no harm in it anyway but that I shouldn't begrudge joining in for just those couple of minutes when it makes everyone happy. As an adult, I still don't believe in God but as long as they aren't threatening Hellfire and brimstone if they don't do it then I can't see it being a big problem. Just make sure he knows that it is just something nursery do and not something he needs to do anywhere else. It'll become a bit like doing the register, in his mind. Just one of those little school rituals.

I wouldn't be happy, but I wouldn't remove him or single him out in any way, I'd just make sure he understood that it is just a tradition to say thank you to god for your food in some places, and that, although you know that god doesn't exist, it's still nice to say thank you to someone for your food as it reminds you to appreciate it.

unless it's a religious school you have the legal right to withdraw him from compulsory worship and participation in religion.
Just write the school a letter saying that you are withdrawing him, that he may not be asked to pray nor sing hymns or similar for any religion.

I guarantee he won't be the first in the area though he may (as is mine) be the only one in his school

My children went to the local church school even though we don't believe in any of that. It had the best reputation in the village that's why i picked it. My kids went with it until year 5 and 6 when their brother died and then started actively arguing with the vicar doing assemblies to the point they were taken out in the end. Up to then though we adopted a be respectful to their beliefs and don't engage approach. Just tell your child we don't pray at home because there isn't anybody to pray to but do it at school as its part of the rules. He will quickly learn school has all sorts of rules they have to do.

God, this is all such bollocks isn't it? I would pull my kids out of any god-bothering nursery. Our's has St in the name but there is no religion forced upon the children. The schools around here are a joke - all but 2 are faith schools that prioritise faux-church-attendance to keep the heathens out. Everyone else (200 ish most years, 258 last year) has to fight over the last 60 places. And so the congregations swell - parents glued to their phones during the sermons, kids a-wailing.

Thankfully our non-faith primary avoids the ludicrous 'daily worship' act (it's assembly, they do not pray.) I actively campaign against this claptrap.

"unless it's a religious school you have the legal right to withdraw him from compulsory worship and participation in religion."

Does that right include the independent sector?

"Just write the school a letter saying that you are withdrawing him, that he may not be asked to pray nor sing hymns or similar for any religion."

Remember (including threads passim) that this includes Nativity plays, and possibly all Christmas activities.

This is a very interesting thread!

We had school prayers and we sang religious songs in school assembly (not exactly hymns though) but I assumed that's because it was a CofE primary school.

I'm not religious but I was brought up in a religious house and school and that is not what I want for my son. I have no issues with grown adults holding sincerely held religious beliefs but am very uncomfortable with the idea that a child can belong to a religion just because the parents want them to.

There are no rules specifically allowing you to withdraw your child from RE/prayers on an independent day nursery. But of course tell them not to include your child if you feel strongly. That's fine.

I would ask the nursery what they are doing to promote diversity and what other religions/non they intro kids to.

Ofsted will look at their promotion of diversity during inspections so they'll want to be on top of that. I think they could potentially be in hot water over this if parents haven't given implicitcor explicit permission.

Do you know what they actually say in the prayer?
My daughter's pre - school said a very 'non-commital' type of thing.
Wasn't religious.

My end of the day school prayer had a line about asking for angels to watch us while we slept.
I used to wonder what that meant .. was the implication that I could die in my sleep but not with angels watching me? I was worried about this so started saying it on weekends too and then would panic when I realised I hadn't said it the night before.
The fact that I still remember this does actually bother me!! Exactly what good was that doing to anyone?!

I wouldn't be keen on this, because religion is the single most toxic thing human beings ever invented.
Still, with little kids, it's probably not worth bothering about it too much. You could talk to them about imaginary friends, particularly if they have any of their own, and point out that it's good manners to acknowledge other people's imaginary friends, however silly, but that there's no need to worry about it. As DC get older, you can discuss mythology and stories with them and remind them of the importance of being reasonably polite as long as other people are not using the iimaginary friend as a weapon or a threat.

My daughter is being taught to be respectful of other religions and to decide for herself what she wants to believe. We are atheists at home, with a humanist outlook.

My daughter was being taught Christianity as fact at her non-denom school but she doesn't believe in any of it. To be polite, I ask her to go along with it all even though she must find the evidence behind the stories she is being told.

You cannot exclude your child from all religious influence, it's impossible. As a humanist I acknowledge how religion has informed and constricted society, it's everywhere. In my view religion is an anachronism, and has been for hundreds of years. Despite science, philosophy and the advancement of human achievement some people still place tradition and/or faith in their religions. They will not be persuaded.

I had a cm who was religious, she informed me when we did the interview bit and I said that me and DH were not religious and did not want him taking part in praying or any religious activities.

I found out that he was doing a pray at lunch and I spoke to her about it, she then at xmas gave him religious children's books as a present, I didn't say anything as it was a gift, I just didn't pass them along to ds, the final straw came when I found out she had been taking him to church based activities and groups.

I got a new CM, we are not religious and felt it was inappropriate for them to be forcing their religion on him and it was also a lack of trust, I repeatedly said we didn't want him taught religion etc. and she ignored it and did it anyway.

I would be extremely annoyed by this. I would not be happy with any religious observances at school. Giving general thanks for food, in a secular, non-denominational way and as a means of acknowledging that other children have a lot less, I might just about be OK with it, but you said your DS describes putting his hands together in a way that is characteristic of Christianity and that I find particularly objectionable. This was not just general thanks giving, it was a Christian prayer.

YANBU. DH and I are both atheist. We didn't have problem with nurseries, but the nonsense they taught DC1 who is in year 1. She has to write a prayer as homework. And she was taught bible stories in school. And she is nativity play too. All I can do is actively told her we don't believe this. For the prayer, I specifically didn't tell her to start with dear god, or asking some big man for anything. Just a thank you for things.

I wouldn't worry. He's highly unlikely to end up religious unless his parents bring him up that way, and a bit of mild prayer at nursery will be forgotten about soon enough. As others have said there will be religious worship of some sort in all state schools and probably in brownies/guides too, try and see it as cultural and similar to celebrating Xmas, singing God save the Queen, eating chocolate at Easter or any of those other quaint traditions we have

Honestly, I think parents read much more into this sort of thing than kids do.

If they ask to do it at home just say 'No, that's what happens at nursery, not at home'.

Once they've left nursery and moved on to school they won't even remember it ever happened. It certainly won't indoctrinate them into any sort of religious faith, I'm sure they will be able to make up their own minds about that in the future.

Independent schools are often (maybe even usually, I'm not sure) more religious than state schools, church schools or not.

The one I work in has morning chapel 4 days out of 6 and both beginning and end of term services in the village church in all 3 terms. There's no lunch or lesson time praying but I am in the 7+ part of the school, I don't know if it's different in the 2+ part.

You can, depending on the school, request that your child is removed if you would prefer. Our old headmaster said that it was made clear how the school worked before a parent signed up and that everyone needed to attend services. But our new headmaster says that if it is important to someone not to then that can be honoured. But most non believing children are happy to sit quietly and think or 'respect other people in their thoughts' or whatever.

How can prayer not mean anything and not be important? You either partake in the religion of the observance in which case it is an extremely important display of faith and an act of communion with your god, or you belong to another religion/are an atheist in which case it is an offensive involvement of your child in acts which are contrary to your values. If religion is so unimportant let all school kids fast for Ramadan at nursery then cover their heads with Sheik turbans and then read some Richard Dawkins for afters.

"You either partake in the religion of the observance in which case it is an extremely important display of faith and an act of communion with your god, or you belong to another religion/are an atheist in which case it is an offensive involvement of your child in acts which are contrary to your values."

Well, no for most people it's just a ritual that doesn't mean much. Think back to your own school days.
That's not to say I agree with it. I think ideally there would be education around different religions, but not taking part in them at school.

Agree with applecarts completely.
I would complain I think

Honestly, I think parents read much more into this sort of thing than kids do.

I'm not reading anything at all in to it - I simply think it's outrageous that in 2016 schools have an obligation for an act of 'daily worship', so that my DS and a bunch of other four and five year olds from Hindu and Muslim and other backgrounds have to mouth these ridiculous pieties along with their Jolly Phonics.

I don't want to have to spend time explaining to my reception-age son that his teachers are generally right and tell the truth, apart from this 'God is real and must be worshipped' stuff. I'm perfectly happy for him to learn about Christianity and all religions - and as a literature academic, my undergraduates who aren't familiar with the Bible are really handicapped when dealing with a lot of English literature from the past - but I'm happier with 'some people believe in God/Allah/Krishna/Ganesha' than 'here is a fact about God, presented in the same terms and by the same much-liked authority figures who tell him that one plus one is two.'

It sounds more like they are just being thankful for their food. I really wouldn't be bothered by this at all. And I'm not overly religious.
People say children should be able to choose for themselves but how will they ever know about religion if they don't hear about it? I bet you all give your children easter eggs and celebrate Christmas... ?

I agree with starryillusion, our dd goes to a cofe school (not much choice round our way!) but Dh and i are both agnostic. We listen to her talk about prayers and discuss that some people believe in a god. I would simply say it's good to be thankful for what we receive.

As time goes on with our dd I'm sure there will be interesting conversations surrounding religion, I hope to be as open about it all as we can be and allow her the freedom to make up her own mind.