To think Cliff Richard and co should stop their awful campaign?

[PinkyOfPie]

news.sky.com/story/sir-cliff-urged-to-drop-campaign-for-anonymity-for-sex-offence-suspects-10620627

In a nutshell Cliff Richard and other well known men have launched a campaign to grant anonymity to accused sexual offenders.

AIBU to think they should FOTTFSOF? Aside from it being a well known fact the other victims come forward when they see their abuser/rapist has been charged, there is absolutely zero evidence to suggest a 'false' accusation of a sex crime impacts a person more than a false accusation of any other crime. Its a horrible rape myth that damages victims.

Also the official stats false accusations for rape and sexual assault (of which around 35 people are convicted a year in the U.K.) are no higher than false accusations any other crime.

So why in gods name would those accused of sexual crimes ever get special treatment?

itsmine I gave up on your posts a while back.

You were being deliberately srcastic & goady in your replies to Virgin's threads, then projecting on to her.

As I've already said if you bothered to read my posts it's an awful fact that 2 members of the same family took their own lives. I've seen articles in the press about this case and am aware there were other factors going on. However as Virgin was pointing out all the headlines included the words 'false rape allegation' when clearly they weren't - a FRA is COMPLETELY different to someone withdrawing.retracting for rasons I've already stated.

It's a dangerous thing to say when there are many people that are already ignorant to rape myths etc and will believe a withdrawal is the same as a false allegation.

How can you not see that?

But doing the opposite and uncritically accepting the media's inaccurate version would be distressing to the girl and her family. The media reported this wrongly. Fact.

Why does one family matter more than the other?

If being factual distresses someone, that's better than being inaccurate and distressing someone else (which every other poster who mentioned Jay Cheshire did - it's only avirgin that was singled out, and her post was the only accurate one).

I dated a man who was falsely accused of rape. He was arrested on his parents' wedding anniversary in front of the whole family and chucked in a cell. She later admitted she'd made it up as she was angry that he wouldn't sleep with her.

At the same time, I've been sexually assaulted by a "friend" and am too scared to take it to the police in case he calls me a liar.

So I can see the pain caused on both sides. However, my ex was able to dust himself off and move on with life. I have nightmares all the time and am now scared of being alone with men.

I'd say the risk of some being falsely accused carries a lesser harm than the risk of rape victims being disbelieved. I feel damaged every day of my life.

Saville was given anonymity.

Sometimes I wonder who the fuck is moderating MN.

No anonymity for people accused of rape or sexual assault. Legal minds, usually pretty patriarchal legal minds, have come to the conclusion that it's in the best interests of justice that they are named.

OP here, sorry I've been incognito last few days have been a write off for various reasons but wanted to come back to the thread!

I agree with pretty much everything Virgin and Janice and Janice's experience of local media echoes that of mine!

FWIW and I should have probably this clear in my OP, what happened to CR was unacceptable - with the BBC tipped off about the raid, along with helicopters and drones circling the house. No one should have to go through that, the police and BBC acted terribly (and illegally!) and the media circus around celebrities in general needs reined in.

However CR's situation is a very unique one and certainly not reflective of the everyday behaviour when someone reports of a sexual crime. I think to have a whole change based on his one experience - knowing fine well it will disadvantage victims by sending the message that would-be rapists are deserving of special treatment or sympathy - is incredibly arrogant. It's already been stated how low the reporting and conviction rates are for rape in the U.K. CR will know this too and yet concentrates his efforts on protection for men rather than using his status and power to help the many victims who don't see justice served. He is happy to partake in a campaign that will ultimate smear the name of people coming forward about rape, even if that smearing isn't his intention.

I know posters have told stories of their DHs and relatives being ostracised after unfounded accusations, and that too is of course not acceptable (I agree with Janice that more people need to be held accountable for being in contempt of court), however personally I believe the general consensus in communities is that the victim must be lying , poor man, etc, and this just develops further if a 'not guilty' verdict is reached. Ched Evans's victim's status of being named and shamed is not a unique one. I lived in a small community where a local councillor who used to be the Head of a private school was accused of rape. The talk of the village was that his accusers were money grabbing liars, he's a lovely man, a councillor no less and poor him etc. Two years later, dozens more victims come forward with truly stomach churning stories and he is serving such a lengthy sentence he will die in jail. After his conviction more victims came forward. BTW all the victims were male, he was the Head of a boy's school, so I know it's not just a women's issue. But the locals were just in complete denial that any of it could have happened (not so much now of course)!

I also can't think of one celebrity who's been acquitted of rape that has had his life or at least career, ruined. CR will no doubt continue to do sell out tours.

Finally I just wanted to reiterate that it's outrageous to say Jay Cheshire's accused made a false allegation. It's simply not true, has been spun nastily by right wing media and my heart goes out to her and her family. I'm not saying he did or didn't rape her - we will never know, or I certainly never will and I don't think it's my place to presume. But it should have been "withdrawn accusation" (clearly not juicy enough for papers though). But I am saying there's no more evidence she lied than there is for the 'accusers' of the 94% of men who are accused of rape that don't see a conviction (apologies if figure is wrong I've taken from up thread!). Also disappointed to see rape myths being perpetuated (they regret it the next day so say it was rape, accusers should be named as well as its only fair, WTAF?!)

And a big to all who've been brave enough to tell their personal stories

itsmine

i assume you're going to insult all the other posters who share my opinion as well.
no? just me?
I'm not going to report you for being a GF, I don't think I'd get anywhere with that, but if you read back on your posts you might see it.
Do you remember Tracey Shelvey? A woman who had to give evidence twice a witness when she reported rape. When her accuser was acquitted she was so distraught she threw herself off of a car park.
Legally he was innocent.
Or can't we discuss that case either because it ended with one of the parties taking their own life?

OP, can you not see the irony of on the one hand saying an allegation of rape has no more impact than that of any other crime, then in the next breath trotting out 'statistics' which 'show' that actually according to you the overwhelming majority of men who are accused of rape are guilty?

Sorry Bill when did I provide any statistics that show the overwhelming majority of men are guilty? Only stats I have provided are those from the CPS about convictions for perverting the course of justice.

For those saying the graph is misleading - I agree. The red bit only shows reported rapes. We know this should be 85% bigger, so even if the black dot was bigger (FWIW there were 116 court cases in a year WRT perverting the course of justice for falsely claiming sexual assaults and rapes) it would still pale into obscurity with a larger red part...if this makes sense!

It is possible to felt that someone (CR in this case) was treated badly without agreeing with then regarding what the solution is.

Or at least it is of you're not hard of thinking.

^ feel that someone

Bloody phone, far too many typos..

itsmine I feel his situation was unacceptable (the way he was treated) but I don't agree with the fact that he is launching a campaign that sends out messages which (whether he means to or not) reinforce dangerous rape myths.

its mine

sorry, I should have said patronize, not insult. (your last post addressed to me. Sorry I don't know how to do do the bold, italics, emoticons etc)

I do think your posts to Virgin were goady though.

Op glad you agree with CR, which makes me wonder why you started this thread?

^ This is the very definition of sarcastic and goady.

itsmine i will put this in the simplest terms possible

I do not think the way CR was treated was right (or legal). I understand his upset

I do not think this justifies leading a campaign that, rather than vilifies the police and press for their actions, will actually reinforce dangerous rape myths and only serve to damage the way victims are perceived.

if you think I've been sarcastic and goady then perhaps another forum may be better suited to you.

Ironic.

However, my ex was able to dust himself off and move on with life. I have nightmares all the time and am now scared of being alone with men.

Are you quite sure that he has moved on mentally and that it no longer causes him any distress when he thinks about it? Do you think that other men in similar circumstances might not be able to move on?

I'd say the risk of some being falsely accused carries a lesser harm than the risk of rape victims being disbelieved. I feel damaged every day of my life.

I'm sorry for what you have been through but your post comes across very subjectively, which is fine, emotional pain and trauma is subjective, however it is for that very reason why I fail to understand how you can claim which is the 'lesser harm'. Each case is different to the next, so one man who has been falsely accused may not even be charged in the first place, whereas another man who has been falsely accused could lose his job, his family, be imprisoned etc. To consider the 'harm' done in each individual case you would need to know a persons support network, their state of mental health and numerous other factors. You cannot simply claim that one would cause less harm than another purely on the basis of what has happened in the situations that you know of.

I am NOT saying you are necessarily wrong, in a lot of cases you may indeed be right. There are however exceptions to the rule and I don't think it is 'fair' to a victim of a false accusation to say that he has been brought to a 'lesser harm'.

I also want to make it clear, in case it is not already, that my main concern is that of the innocent party - be that a victim of rape or a victim of a false accusation, I don't think that either of those deserves any less support that the other. I think BOTH parties should be treated with confidentiality and consideration at least until the facts of what has happened is fully established in a court of law.

The fact that even our patriarchal, institutionally misogynist justice system acknowledges that defendants should be named highlights what a regressive position it is to argue that rape defendants should be treated differently to those in other types of case.

Justice needs to be conducted in the open, and all defendants should be treated the same. Rape defendants are no more likely to be falsely accused than any other defendant, and are not harmed more by the trial process than those suspected of other serious crimes such as murder.

Janicebattersby is right - the main issue is not the press (as most rapes aren't even covered in the press) but rumours and gossip in local communities. And no law change will prevent that.

Has it occurred to you that one of the reasons for having an open justice system and conducting trials in public is not just so that prosecution witnesses can come forwards, but also so that defence ones can too? Potential alibis who can testify that the defendant was seen somewhere else? It's not unheard of.

SemiNormal

If the police had done a proper job of investigating my rape then perhaps the CPD would have charged, he would have gone to court and may have been found guilty.

Instead the opposit happened. He wasn't even charged, and told everyone I'd made it up and was mad, bitter, a liar etc etc etc, so to everyone that knows both of us, they are full of sympathy for him and see me as some kind of fantasist/liar.

He has most definitely got on with his life whereas mine took a bit longer to pick up the pieces, and I'd say I'll never be the same person again. PTSD, anxiety, nightmares, and I cope with them on good days. Bad days, I won't even go there.

Inthe cases where allegations have been 'proven' to be false, overall there is still more sympathy for the man accused.

But we can't win, because when we do to the police and they don't take it any further we're the ones seen as liars and 'false accusers'

If you think men accused of rape should have anonymity, you are in effect arguing for even more rapists to walk free.

Fewer than 15% of rapes are ever reported to the police. Of that 10-15%, only 6% end in a guilty verdict, because most are thrown out before they even get to court. This is in spite of the fact that only 2-4% of these allegations are false.

And you want even more rapists to get off? Fewer than 6% of all reported rapists serve time, that means something like well under 0.5% of all rapists ever serving time?

And even those few are too bloody many for some of you lot?

It's basically the position that however damaging rape is to women, however many women suffer it (something like 10%), men's lives are so much more valuable than those of women, that their interests must be protected first. If that means even fewer rapists being held to account, even more of them walking around our streets knowing they can rape women with impunity, then that's a price worth paying. Because men's lives matter.

Fuxache.

RoundAndAround He was arrested on his parents' wedding anniversary in front of the whole family and chucked in a cell.

Could someone please explain the massive discrepancy in dealing with rape cases? Why are some men dragged off like this and others are called in at their leisure for an interview?