To think that Staffies are not "nanny dogs"

[Flowersinyourhair]

Ok. I await the cries of "it's not the dog, it's the owner" and "we had one and it was wonderful" etc etc. However, once again here we are looking at a news story about a dead baby and a seriously injured toddler as a result of a Staffie attack. AIBU or does something drastic need to change regarding perceptions of dogs like this who are apparently fine, until they're not. This dog was, it seems, the dog of a PC. Not a thug or a dog fighting yob. A PC.

I await the barrage of abuse here. I just feel so sad about these poor defenceless little boys who harmed no one and have suffered so tragically.

CatchingBabies you got your rottie right in the thick of the devildog. What were you thinking
I wonder which dog it will be next?

The breed is pretty much irrelevant. There is no evidence that Staffies attack children or adults more than any other breed. In fact, most evidence, although hard to gather reliably, concludes that there are numerous other breeds that are more likely to bite a person.

The news is tragic, but it could happen with any breed of dog. All dogs need careful supervision around children.

Kali - We did, we even had 2 of them at that time shock horror!

I worked in animal rescue and seeing as they were the breed suddenly jumping to the front of the PTS list they came home with me.

The nanny dog thing pisses me right off..

This is a huge myth, this idea that nasty dog fighting men would put the pitbull in the pram with the baby to bring it home after the fight..

However it should not be confused with the truth.

The truth is, people kill more children, and kill their OWN children more often than dogs do, and certainly more often than bullbreeds do.

Dog attacks and fatal dog attacks hit the news because it IS news, because it DOESNT happen every three minutes like kids being killed by parents or being run over or dying of drugs or whatever..

Why does it 'always' seem to be staffies/bullbreeds/pitbulls..

Because statistically, these breeds are more likely to be owned by negligent dickheads.

Statistically, these breeds are more likely to do severe damage if they attack.

Because they are incredibly popular and thus numerically, very common.

And because when it is a labrador or a jack russell or a poodle or a collie ... that doesn't make the news and when it does, that story fades away so much quicker.

Breed Specific Legislation clearly hasn't worked, it hasn't furthered education, it hasn't reduced the number of illegal breeds, it hasn't reduced the number of dog attacks or dog related fatalities.

Not only has it not done this in the UK, it also has not achieved that goal in ANY country that has implemented it, ever.

Unless your dog is a gummy toothless chihuahua, the fact is its potentially able to kill a tiny baby.

Leaving dogs unsupervised with any child is a risk, and the smaller the child and larger, relatively, the dog, the bigger that risk is.

One of the real dangers with bullbreeds is in fact, unlike other breeds, they have a MUCH higher pain threshold, and a much greater tolerance for being knocked about, sat on, kicked and pushed around by kids... and this in my experience, leads parents to assume that the dog is 'fine' with what is happening and they continue to allow that sort of treatment to happen.

There is within some groups of parents an attitude of 'the dog should put up with whatever the child throws at it' which horrifies me as a dog professional but.. its not uncommon!

So when these dogs who have tolerated sometimes years of abuse from tiny children, and have almost certainly been told off for things like moving away from the child (yes, seriously people tell their dog off for that!), for lip curling or growling at a child, for snapping at the child...

You end up with a dog who reaches breaking point and does so without any warning signs whatsoever.

Thats a recipe for tragedy, but until people start to recognise this and realise they need to understand a bit about dog behaviour before owning a dog and they MUST supervise children and dogs, this will keep happening.

No dog should ever be left alone with a child; supervision allows for intervention. There is no breed of dog that is physiologically capable of "locking" their jaws. Every dog has the capacity to inflict serious wounds. It is up to the owner to minimise that risk by raising their animal to be well trained, well socialised and supervised.

I'd be quite happy if nobody had a dog.

No one needs one, except in work roles. Guide dogs.

^^
This.

Banned MIL's lab from the house as soon as I brought my pfb home from hospital, thirty years later still not been forgiven!

There's a lot of things you don't need, but that doesn't stop people from owning them. What a stupid comment.

My Staff is amazing with my 11month old son, loving him, cleaning him, following him round. But I would NEVER EVER leave them alone together for a minute, I wouldn't even leave my child alone with a cat. Because as amazing as my wonderful dog is, she is a 28kg animal with teeth. I have no doubt that they will grow up as best mates. Its not the breed. Staffs often don't get on with other dogs which makes them seem a bit scary.

But what I don't get... everyone saying never leave your staffie alone with your kids. It is pretty irrelevant isn't it? After all, if this breed decides to go for a child, there isn't much you can do about it even if you're there. It's strong, it's muscular and there's been press before where something has happened when others have been in the room. (Wasn't there that case when a young girl was eating a pie in the same room as a dog and was attacked and killed and others were there.) So when you say Firsttimer your staffie loves your 11 month old, and he cleans him and follows him around, surely it takes one split second for him to turn also? My nerves would be on edge all the time with a strong breed and a baby. P.s. does he lick him all the time? What if your 11 month old bats him away and dog doesn't take to that...

TBH even though believe it or not, I like dogs, I couldnt be bothered to have one when my kids were little as there's enough to do without having to factor in watching the dog too. However, if I had, I honestly would have got some toy breed type dog that I could easily overpower.

First at 28kg your staff is twice the breed standard.
The average staffy on the street is a cross breed, usually with a bit of pitbull in there. At times of stress, the temperament can come out.

I've read this with a bit of shock to be honest. To those of you who believe that dogs are a ticking time bomb with waggy tails and soft ears I say the following.

There is a concept of managed risk. We need to cross the road, we need to travel in cars, we need to leave kids to be brought up by their own parents, all of which are way more potentially dangerous than owning a dog. How many of you have been in a car accident? I have, twice, but I've never been bitten by a dog, but yet my kids still get in the car without me giving it a second thought. How many kids are hurt or abused by adults? Plenty, but yet other human beings who are statistically more likely to do bad things to kids than a dog are not even thought about, we just think that some people are bad.

Which brings me back to dogs and kids. I've never not had a dog, I love them, and I know them incredibly well. My kids adore the dogs too, we have two black labs who give a huge amount to this family and a lot of love to the children. The key is they are managed. The dogs are managed and so are the kids. There has to be a mutual respect, the dogs can't jump all over the kids, they have to respect distance when they are eating for example. The kids have to be kind to the dogs without exception. So it's a very positive relationship from both sides. And to give dogs a bit of positive PR in what has been a very dog hating post they've given our family far more than they've taken. I watch my eldest outside with our one year old lab playing and they delight in the games they have together. If my eldest feels lonely at bedtime there's always a dog to lie on his bed. We've got land and the kids have quite a bit of freedom, I feel better knowing that they have the freedom I had and so desperately wanted for them but they have at least one dog out for the adventure. It's happened for time immaterial and I'm not denying my kids the positives they get on the most 0.0000001% chance that something might go wrong (and I'd bet my house on my dogs remaining pleasant, I truly would). It is managed risk, and sadly you can't purge risk out of kids lives, if you try to you purge the good memories and potential enjoyment that your kids will have.

But, you can get the odd rogue dog, but if you educate yourself about dogs you'll know very quickly which dog it is. I have friends with dogs I wouldn't trust around my children, who I always make sure they're supervised with. I've read the dogs body language, I've seen the warnings they've given. I had a friend with a staffie puppy whose kids were constantly tormenting the poor creature, that was a ticking time bomb because her kids were not managed. That puppy was lovely but if something happened I'd totally understand why. It was horrible to see, I told her so, I told her kids too, and I wouldn't be surprised to see something happen there. Not friends with her anymore but I can only hope they've sorted themselves out now.

I'm sure I'll get a few people worried about my poor children with the savage creatures that are free to maul them whenever they like, but I think they are very lucky to have had the experience of having such lovely pets.

As for the case involved, it's tragic and horrendous. I can't guess what happened (rogue dog, dodgy breeding, bad initial experiences, ongoing lack of boundaries, lack of dog knowledge, who knows?) but my heart goes out to them. But you can't purge an entire species or breed for that matter. It's just ridiculous to even consider it. A bit of education about dogs would be far more realistic. A dog licence where an owner has to prove some knowledge about dogs for example?

I never had a family dig always wanted one.
Family members had sheep dog/ spaniels and labs seemed most popular growing up.
My aunt had Yorkshire terrier called roll it was always nippy ans hated kids.
She also had corgis which were quite boring dogs
Freinds nan also had evil Yorkshire terrier so I avoid terriers

I have wanted a dog for years but we rent privately and I have 3 kids aged 10,7 and 5 so maybe past the danger zone .

I feel so sorry for this poor family .
My feeling is the dig probably wasent a staffie.

I live in an area where lots people own staffie.
Remember 1 young girl in high street shouting come here terror.
I get nervous when I see this breed in high street with young owners when a dog is taking adult for a walk and pulling makes me wonder how well they could control then if things turned nasty.

My kids used to be so scared of dogs.
They got much better recent years as safely introduced them to freindly dogs.
We always ask the owner if safe to touch.
They know to keep their distance from dogs.

My biggest bug bear is the village common outside a primary school and large park both popular with dog walkers.
So many dogs not on a lead.
Or dog walkers with too many dogs.
Not heard about many attacks on people but heard awful stories dogs attacking other dogs there.

Having a dog is not cheap.
It requires a lot of time

So many dogs couped up.
I work in distribution and amount times dogs snatches something from my hand is scary .
Weary about some houses as couple houses large dogs going mental couped up in lounge barking at every passer by when owner appears to be out.

There's a couple houses in busy road.
Next to small retail park.
Close to a primary and secondary so lots people walk past.
Ever time I pass either house I can hear the dogs growing one is staffie other is a huge boxer dog they are in their gardens jumping up at garden gate .
I always wonder if owner was out ans they escaped the gate what damage they would cause.

"Meant to say clearly WAS an undersocialised dog"

Catching- I appreciate that it is more convenient for those who are pro-Staffie to believe this but I know quite where you've got this from. You say the neighbours commented that they hadn't much seen the dog? This dog didn't live in that house as I understand it and even if it did, the family had only recently moved in so the neighbours were far from experts on their movements.

Re press bias. Of course there is bias in the press, but towards a specific breed of dog?? Why would that be? What benefit would a news outlet gain from vilifying one breed of dog against another? And to be honest, so what if there is bias. These stories aren't fabricated. There are countless stories of Staffies attacking and hurting/killing children and adults- a 5 minute Google will tell you as much. Yesterday was just another example. This isn't fiction. And yes, I hear that argument that most of these dogs are not pedigree Staffies but have pitbull in them- I agree. That's the point and the problem really isn't it. A huge percentage of so called 'Staffies' actually have the tendencies and characteristics of a breed that has been banned. What do you propose we do? Test them all and keep only the pedigree ones without such tendencies- or just wait for the next news story?

I don't trust dogs and always felt bad that I seem to have transmitted my fears to my kids, despite my best efforts not to.
After reading this thread I am glad they're so cautious. Over 7000 attacks requiring hospital visits, and so many deaths. That's scary.
A lot of my friends have dogs and children, and regularly leave them alone... to put out washing, put things away upstairs, have a bath. How could you never leave them alone?
I am with the OP, except I'm not sure what can be done.

My Staff is amazing with my 11month old son, loving him, cleaning him, following him round. But I would NEVER EVER leave them alone together for a minute, I wouldn't even leave my child alone with a cat. Because as amazing as my wonderful dog is, she is a 28kg animal with teeth. I have no doubt that they will grow up as best mates. Its not the breed. Staffs often don't get on with other dogs which makes them seem a bit scary.

Irrelevant whether you you leave them unsupervised or not. If your Staffordshire Bull Terrier decides to kill your baby there will be nothing you can do about it. It will go for you too most probably.

It's the potential for damage. Nobody ever seems to come out lightly after these Staffs attacks.

No dog should ever be left alone with small children. I love dogs but would never have one as a pet when I had young children as they would invariably be left alone at some point. There's alwayscrys of it was a lovely dog would never hurt a fly etc. yes I'm sure it was lovely until it killed a child. Stafford are so very powerful if they decide to attack there is precious little you can do

I'll put my hands up to avoiding DD getting too friendly with a classmate who has large dogs in a small house. 4 kids and a couple of rottweilers (brilliant animals but they need space ) and they've just bred a litter of more rotties. I've been watching it unfold on FB and made a mental note to avoid play dates. Those poor dogs haven't got what they need and the adults in the house aren't taking it seriously. In fact I expect the puppies are on Gumtree now or were sold via FB.

What do you propose we do? Test them all and keep only the pedigree ones without such tendencies as a staffy lover I am somewhat tempted by this. However it is a bit extreme.
Education is the way. Anyone with a 'staffy type dog' over about 17kg needs to accept that is probably has a fair bit of pitbull in it. This will up the likelyhood of it having a bad turn.
People need to accept that if a staffy goes for someone it will go for the throat and not let go. When they are good they are very good, when they have a bad turn they are lethal, fact.
To get a staffy to release a bite you have to restrict their breathing by either pushing them into the bite or covering their nose. You may also need to pull back their gums and insert a finger behind their teeth to make them gag. If you have looked in a staffy mouth, you will know this is not what you want to do. Owners need to recognise that their little softy is a lean, mean, killing machine.
I like staffies, but I respect their potential.

To those saying their dog is great with their children, I suspect the dog yesterday was considered great with children. I can't imagine that the mother of the boys would have had the dog in the house if she considered the dog a risk to her children's safety. It only takes one time doesn't it? You don't always know what kind of dog you have until that one time- by which point it's too late.
And if you argue that you wouldn't leave the dog and children alone, then you are accepting that the dog is potentially dangerous and a risk to your children. Why on earth would you invite that into your home? Your children's home?

And what do you imagine you would do if the dog went for your child? How do you imagine you would be able to protect your children against a muscular dog like a Staffy? The mother yesterday tried to intervene ( (she too ended up in hospital) as countless others have before her in other similar circumstances. Maybe she saved the toddler's life as a result. He still has injuries to live with for the rest of his life. Is that honestly a risk worth taking?

Do you live in a rough area, Karma? Round here it is mostly retired people in tweed and wellies who have Staffies. Not on chains, either, proper leads or harnesses.

Even supervised Toddlers can be little buggers with dogs. DD is three now and only just started giving the dog more respect so they don't need separating most the time. Obviously still supervised.

Il never forget DD1 age about 2 stuck her bloody finger up the previous dogs arse. To the dogs credit he just looked a bit startled and wandered off.

This could of had a different outcome with a different dog. This was supervised and with a good knowledge on the dog who was well trained etc. Accidents can happen, we don't know what happened in that house apart from one child is hurt and one is dead. It's just very sad.

OP, have you heard of the idea of a folk devil? That's what the press are doing with Staffies. They can't vilify all dog breeds because it wouldn't work. People wouldn't believe it. Picking one breed of dog though works.

That's coupled with the fact that if Staffies (who in general aren't really Staffies - the ones who bite tend to be crosses, poorly bred and not in good hands re proper exercise, training and socialisation) bite, they do a lot of damage because of how they're built.

Remember that there's thousands out there that are perfectly lovely family pets.

I also believe that it only a very very tiny amount of dogs will just snap and bite for no reason (and even then there tends to be a reason, it just might not be obvious. )

It's been proven that dog breeds are genetically predisposed to certain behaviour. It's how humans created breeds in the first place. To say deed not breed is a load of rubbish.
If you had a collie for example it will herd, no amount of training will remove that trait. Labs retrieve, terriers hunt. To say that you can bring up a poodle to do the job of a pitbull is crap. You can control or channel traits but it will always be there genetically.

It's also proven that if you breed from an unsound bitch or dog that it is likely those puppies will be nervous or aggressive also. This is why the kennel club tell you to view the parents, so you get an idea of what your dog will become.

Sadly for staffs they are generally bred cheaply by idiots with little to no testing at all. They are cheap to buy, so owned by people with perhaps less money for training and vets bills and they are easy to source.
They also have a tendency to be dog aggressive and this has created problems for them as people are caught in the crossfire.
As a trainer I find them not easy to deal with, they are not really people pleasers as much as the other breeds and tend to be hyper and overconfident as young dogs.

I really don't like staffs if I'm honest as I think they are ruined as a breed and it would be better for them if they were regulated so only responsible people could own one. My own dog was attacked by a staff and it tore her throat open...she was 50kg so not small and the damage was horrendous. This dog was clearly too much for its owner, never been trained and yep was owned by a police officer

Ideally I think all dog owners need a reality check and licensing wouldn't be a bad thing.

Would I want a dog bred for fighting around my kids? Not really. I do have large breeds but have gone for pastoral types instead that were not bred to tear something up!