to wonder if this is really happening? parents are being asked to confirm if their kids are British born.

[someonestolemynick]

A few messages popped up on social media today by parents whose school asked them to confirm if the child in question is foreign born. One friend said this was being done by all schools today.
I don't have kids and am an EU national.
I have been disappointed by the referendum result but have adopted a "Wait and see" approach.
Yesterday's announcements of companies having to list foreign employees coupled with today's rumours is really freaking me out.

Have you been asked today to confirm your child's nationality by their school? Aibu to be fucking terrified?

Maybe it's ok as their parents will be paying in excess of 40k for their dc to live and be educated here

Ah, so there's secret pre-selection census that cross-references household income before requesting details of a child's birth country?

murmeli - this is the first time that this specific information has been asked for in the school census - previously it asked for ethnicity and first language. Now it is adding country of birth, nationality and proficiency in English (which is assessed by teachers)

The school is required to ask for the information, so far a blank form or non-return is being put down as 'not yet obtained'. We don't yet know whether the powers that be will require us to keep asking parents every time if they haven't replied with the information or specifically refused, but if you don't want to be bothered again, it's probably best to return the form with 'refused' rather than just binning it.

To the people squabbling about history, there is indeed a history of countries collecting information for perfectly innocent reasons.

There's also a history of countries changing the use of the information the moment the shit hits the fan.

The perfectly innocent 1930s censuses of France and the Netherlands were seized on by the invading Nazis to locate and round up Jewish people. The Netherlands had particularly accurate, detailed censuses which contributed to the high detention rates of Jewish people there, despite quite heroic resistance by the Dutch in general.

Edwin Black set this out in great detail in IBM and the Holocaust.

(IBM, because the punch card machines bought to process censuses turned out to be jolly useful for arranging the movements of hundreds of thousands of people, selected for their religion and sometimes for their skilled occupations. Helped the trains run on time, too. The machines were also installed in the concentration camps.)

So deciding whether or not to answer census/monitoring questions really is a question of what you personally guess that data might be used for in the next decade or two. Including if it's leaked, stolen or sold.

And I'm sorry to those bored hearing about what the Nazis did. They happen to be a well-documented and local example of the nuts and bolts of how governments can use data, when so minded. As a PP said, other examples are available.

Space

It makes you think. We didn't even get the annual check of details so I know that they haven't been asked to provide details.
In fairness though I have no dc in state schools in this area so don't know how many schools have been asked.
I'm certainly going to ask about town though.

Total hysteria.

I'm a labour supporter, I'm not a Tory fan.

To compare the Tories to the Nazis or indeed any far right party is just ludicrous.

To compare the current mood in the country as 'marching nationalism' is ludicrous.

It's an insult to countries where people do live under fascist governments.

Eg the USA 1930 census asks if the household owns a radio. This was valuable information to know how effective radio was for communicating to different sections of the radio.

It also asks place of birth of self and parents. Other censuses asked for religion, ethnicity and language.

The US was NOT one of the countries which shortly afterwards acquired a facist government which combined information like this to lethal effect. So all good.

As a PP said, other examples are available

Most people aren't proffering those, though, as they haven't picked them up from a Facebook meme.

Nobody's disputing any of that Feynman.

What I am disputing is that the mere fact of data being collected is a sufficient justification to compare 2010s UK to 1930s Germany.

Data capture happens all the time, across the world, for centuries. It isn't inherently sinister.

different sections of the radio population

I might have misread, but are people anxious about the mere fact of data being collected?

Or anxious about this particular data being collected in the context of a ruling party which has just described companies employing "foreigners" as being "shamed"?

Surely it's the two things together that are causing anxiety?

Radio?

"conclude Remainers are all paranoid loons"

As well they might.

As the guidance for this year's census was published on 25 March, nearly 3 months before the referendum, when Dave did not expect a 'leave' victory.

You've misread quite dramatically if you think the objection to the yellow star rhetoric is that we're 'bored of hearing about what the nazis did'.

Surely

Yes, the Nazis used that data in a horrific way but the data being taken now isn't like that at all -- it not's one nationality and it's not of people who are in any way under threat globally.

If it was specifically one nation, you might have a point.

There has been a lot of chatter about screening for DS this week and a lot of people pointing out that gathering information is a completely different thing from how you use that information. Same thing applies.

If I were the Government I would want this data.... Not to round people up into concentration camps but because I would want to know that net cost of immigration (of which educating migrants is one) in order to determine a robust, considered and sensible immigration policy, both in terms of migrant numbers and resourcing those communities containing migrants. This would be responsible government.

It's no different to all the other data that's collected... The government need it to make informed decisions concerning investment and the allocations of resources.

It's the paranoia on here that's terrifying (ok, maybe just concerning) not the fact that the government is collecting data - something all responsible to governments do.

Yes the UK isn't perfect, but I believe it remains one of the most liberal and tolerant countries in the world, ever. To believe it is one step away from nazism is preposterous.

"conclude Remainers are all paranoid loons"

Not this one. I voted remain. I'm still pro-Remain. And I'm utterly bemused by the hysteria that has ensued since the result was announced.

As the guidance for this year's census was published on 25 March, nearly 3 months before the referendum, when Dave did not expect a 'leave' victory

Thanks Moggy.

people pointing out that gathering information is a completely different thing from how you use that information.

Completely agree.

I think the anxiety is arising from what people are guessing the information might be used for. In the context of what the government have just said.

That's what I meant unicorn. I'm finding it embarrassing to be a remainer when I read guff like this thread. It feels like the madness is only accelerating.

a kind of growing cultural acceptance of ideas and sentiments that are worryingly intolerant and might eventually lead to the establishment of a more seriously organised movement A bit like Sharia for Britain then, or Momentum?

The data will be used hopefully to ensure that there are enough EAL teachers/staff in schools.

I live in Belgium - I have to carry an ID card. I had to provide birth certificates, passport, marriage certificate. I have to register my driving licence with the local town hall. I had to have a police woman (and they are all armed) come to check that we did live at our address and answer 20 questions on the whereabouts of my then teenager (at sixth form in UK).

When I wanted to change my address at the bank, they refused to do it until I had informed the Gemeente (local authority) that I had moved, and could prove that I had done so. I find belgium far more sinister than I do the UK in what information it has and how it is used.

"I think the anxiety is arising from what people are guessing
the information might be used for"

"Guessing" is the key word there.

The government already have this information but, as a pp said, data protection prevents transferral of information for additional uses. So, if the government was planning to use birth information for nefarious purposes, surely they would just quietly (and nefariously) extract it from one of the pre-existing sources, rather than mounting such a visible and controversial data collection process and courting public ire in the process?

If they're planning to break data protection laws, why not just do that from the outset and take the information from elsewhere, rather than go to all this trouble?

Do people really believe that, without these forms, the government are at a complete loss as to which children were born abroad and which weren't?

It's guessing because they are no safeguarding in place to ensure that the data is used ONLY to improve teaching.
Because there is no boundaries, then you can easily guess that the government will be happy to do xxx with the information.

Data protection is insufficient and has been gone over before. Besides, what is telling you that one day someone will decide that actually they will do away with data protection 'for the good of the nation'?

Space where will they find this information then? Really curious to know.

Oh agreed, it's absolutely about one's personal guess of the how data will be used.

Because where you are born does NOT say what is your nationality (nor does it say if you might have two or three different ones etc...)