To think a test for downs that is nearly 100% accurate will not result in more terminations

[PlayOnWurtz]

I'm getting increasingly annoyed with Sally Philips at the moment and her insistence testing for downs syndrome is a negative thing and that living with someone with downs syndrome is a wholly positive experience.

Whatever happened to choice? Who is she to lay the guilt trip on people? Why is it seen as shameful to say "I would not be able to raise a person with significant health and learning disabilities" and seen as a negative decision made on a whim rather than a decision made with consideration and thought and heartache?

Def a more accurate test is a good thing.
I for one nearly opted out of the current test because I wouldn't and couldn't have terminated the pregnancy no matter the result. Having a more accurate test would not have impacted this decision.

I could be wrong but I would imagine Sally Phillips is in a more fortunate position than many, having financial resources to obtain extra support or afford to stay at home.

Many people are not in that fortunate position. I work in a very disadvantaged area and services and support for families with children with down syndrome can be thin on the ground.

Admittedly I'm not in the UK but I'd imagine things aren't so different there.

The test is a great thing. I paid privately to have the nuchal fold test and would defend anyone's right to know if the child they are carrying has downs syndrome.

It's a lifelong commitment, financially, emotionally and physically. People need the choice.

I think that it's a personal choice to have a baby, personal choice to have screening tests and a personal choice to deal with that information however they see fit! Fed up of stupid privileged people who try to tell everyone else what they should/should not be doing! Screening tests are a good thing and it's no one else's business what choice any woman makes with the information she gets from said tests. Anything that reduces the risk to mums and babies is a good thing. People like Sally Phillips are just trying to justify their own choices by trying to make other people feel bad!

Sally Phillips has a live-in nanny and parents that help her continually. Sally Phillips is pro-life. Sally Phillips should have no say in what information I am given about my pregnancy. There has already been a thread on this going for a while giving some amazing view points from the other side.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2747249-To-think-MN-is-taking-a-strange-stance-on-the-NIPT-test?

One of the things I find most galling is that she doesn't seem to realise how privileged she is. Successful actress with all the flexibility that affords, a rich husband, and I read she said she was 'lucky' enough to have a live-in nanny for her son.
So how fucking dare she lecture and judge other parents who don't have anywhere near the resources she has.
I don't usually post, I'm more of a lurker, but all this is making me increasingly uncomfortable

NIPT (for trisomies) does not replace amnio. You have NIPT ,if a high risk result, you have cvs/amnio.

It just reduces the number of amnios as it is a more accurate screening test than combined screening. I know several people with false positives and negatives on NIPT. Terminating on this basis would be risky.

I think it's pretty awful to tell other women what they should think and feel about about this test and their own pregnancies. Make it available and if people want to do it, let them. Demanding not to have it as an option because you don't like the idea is not acceptable.
Maybe some women want to know so they are more prepared rather than because they wouldn't keep the baby. Maybe they've lost a child shortly after birth due to chromosome abnormalities and want to know if a subsequent child would be affected too. It is not true that more information = more terminations.

"One of the things I find most galling is that she doesn't seem to realise how privileged she is. Successful actress with all the flexibility that affords, a rich husband, and I read she said she was 'lucky' enough to have a live-in nanny for her son.
So how fucking dare she lecture and judge other parents who don't have anywhere near the resources she has. "

I agree with this. She has no right to be so pushy with her views and make others feel bad for their personal choices.

Well as someone in Ireland I think forewarned is forearmed.

I had to fight with my consultants for a nuchal fold test because they were unsure what I'd do if it was unfavourable!

No one I knew who was pregnant at that time in the antenatal class even knew what that test was, or that it was available. It wasn't offered routinely.

So many people try and put a ceiling on what we can do as women, let's not let ignorance be one of these.

I think choice is essential for women and knowledge is power.

If you think about who does the majority of child rearing and childcare and family relationship work and emotional work, then women have first dibs on any decision as to how they spend the rest of their lives.

Some may choose to spend their lives with a baby and child and adult who has Down's syndrome, some will choose to terminate early on in the pregnancy.

It's a woman's body and life and she does the majority of caring for children: if she's not sure she can handle being a mother and main carer to such a baby child and adult, then she's the one to make the decision.

I really think this idea bandied about that the decision to terminate is a cold and heartless decision, taken lightly, like choosing an option from a menu, and one that doesn't involve soul searching and heartache does no one any good. It demonises women and it makes the reality of this complicated situation idiotically simplistic and binary : Good Vs Evil.

Of course these decisions are exceptionally hard, and that's why early reliable tests are essential for all women.

Spare a thought for us sisters in Ireland with our patriarchal medical profession and archaic misogynistic laws.

Even if we can get tests, we are treated like murderous witches for even demanding them.

If we have the tests we have to wait for results while doctors tsk tsk our uppityness, then come the decisions, and then if we decide to terminate the pregnancy, we have to get the money together to travel to another country to have a termination, usually much later than other women in similar situations.

When we return home we haven't got the after care needed, physically nor emotionally. It's absolutely barbaric and medieval.

Knowledge is power.
What you do with that knowledge is up to you, but going backwards does no one any good, especially women.

The logic applied by campaigners against this test is horrible, IMO. Essentially they seek to deny women a safe choice in the hope that they will be too frightened of the risk of miscarriage to get the test done.
This - this it what it boils down to. And that's horrific.

Ignoring the whole 'this is not just a fucking Down's syndrome test, it test for other syndromes' that I keep going on about...

The arguement is made that people have the test in order to have a termination if the screen is positive. I have had the harmony test. I would have terminated for T13 or T18 (I had already had a tfmr for T18 hence a harmony in subsequent pregnancy) but I would have continued if my baby had T21, I wanted to know so that I could put a care plan in place antenatally and post natally, so that I could find out more about Down's syndrome and things I might need to think about bringing up a child with Down's syndrome.

As it was I had a negative screen for all trisomies and ds died the next day (reasons unknown). £500 it cost me. We are no wealthy, I worked an extra day a week for 7 weeks to pay for the tests.

I am very grateful that Sally Phillips is standing up for unborn children. I hate the thought that babies are aborted because they have Down Syndrome.

Here's another "but" response.

I'm pro life. But I don't actually think that means that I have the right to force another woman to carry to term, deliver, and care for a baby with a significant chromosomal abnormality, against her will.

It has surprised me a bit on here and social media platforms how many people say 'I'm pro choice but...' That's not pro choice and I suppose it's the reason why so many women choose not to talk about termination. So much judgement out there. It's even worse when it's judgement from people pretending to be pro choice.

I'm pro-choice but I know I would be likely to abort the pregnancy if I was told early on that the baby would be born with downs

Thanks for the link gruffalo I'll have a read

I'm pro-choice too. Many people do not have the local family support to help them bring up a disabled child. It can be difficult enough to to find child care for a 'normal' child. Sounds like Sally Phillips has a very privileged existence & doesn't have a fucking clue about life in the real world where both parents may work full time outside of the home & really struggle to achieve a balance between home & work.

People with Down's syndrome can live long and healthy lives, contribute to society, get married.

But embryos which don't have DS can do all those things too. But for whatever reason many women choose to abort them. Because it's not the right time, they're not in a financial position to do it, they can't cope etc. I don't see why the position should be any different for people with DS just because their disability is factored in. It's just an anti-choice argument.

The argument seems to be that these campaigners want to force women to have DS children against their will because 'You'll like it when it gets here and you will cope'. Which is exactly the sort of thing those awful LIFE 'abortion counsellors' used to say to women they'd conned into visiting them.

And what about children who don't have DS but are miscarried because of the current tests? Couldn't they grow up and get married and contribute to society? Aren't they factored into this at all if we're objecting to pregnancies being ended unnecessarily?

NIPT (for trisomies) does not replace amnio. You have NIPT ,if a high risk result, you have cvs/amnio.

Not true. You have the combined test at 12 weeks. If high risk, you can have amnio, CVS or NIPT.

"standing up for unborn children"

What is an "unborn" child?

"I hate the thought that babies are aborted because they have Down Syndrome."

Babies can't be aborted because they are already born. Do you mean fetuses?

Do you hate the thought of fetuses with DS being aborted more than the thought of those without DS being aborted? If so, what is so special about fetuses with DS?

Cheby You still have to have the CVS/amnio to formally diagnose after a high risk NIPT result.

as mentioned on previous thread...some people with downs can lead a independent life whilst others need 24 hour care. As someone who treats patients with downs its the associated medical conditions like heart and the dementia that i find very hard. My heart broke Seeing a man in his 30s with downs and late stage dementia laying in bed whilst his family struggled to cope. His parents were concerned who care for him if they couldnt. Its has to be the woman decision and this test gives an informed decision without risk of miscarriage. Can only be a good thing. Whatever way a woman decides thats her decision end of story!