To think they just aren't normal?

[Theydontsleep]

Help! I am just feeling so frustrated and am hoping for some insight / advice or just plain old reassurance that we will get through this! I've got 18 month old twins. Everything is great with them except the sleeping. I still breastfeed and they can only go to sleep through feeding. I have never been able to put them down for naps, I have to sit feeding them for however long they nap. At night I feed them off to sleep and within 10 mins they are awake again. So I feed again and they go back to sleep. A good night they wake 4 times and I feed off to sleep each time. Bad night, which is more than good, they wake 10 times plus. They will only go back to sleep if they are fed. We don't let them cry and that's not an option for us but is there anything else we can try? Will it get better?! We co sleep, they eat really well, have plenty to do each day and there are no other issues whatsoever. They are in a good bedtime routine and have no health conditions. I just am so desperate for them to sleep without waking every hour. Are they normal for non cry it out 18 month olds? Thanks for reading!

Ah yes, I recognise the 'i've got the book but can't find the time to read it'

I agree with listening for the 'sound' of a cry: is it a whimper, a whine or working up to complete losing the plot?
Don't intervene at the first whimper.
Get DH to pat/reassure/lift and cuddle.
Offer a dummy.
Feed only when they are due a 'meal' - you need to break the 'breast in mouth = falling asleep" association.

They won't like it. There will be some crying, but babies do cry; sometimes simply because they cannot say 'I don't like this' and that's an important emotion to learn to manage.

Wrt 'you caused this', yes, maybe you contributed to the problem, but clearly they also did! They trained you well, so now you need to take back a bit of control.

They will not still do it when they are 16....

OP do not listen to them. You have not "ruined" your children, nor is this "your fault" you have responded to your child's needs.
Firstly look up Dr Phil Gordon night weaning. He's been really helpful to lots of people I know. What worked for us because my son wasn't bf at this point was buying a bed for him. He was so excited for his "big boy bed" and his new quilt that when he woke that night and I took him to my bed he asked to go back to his bed. Get your twins to pick new bedding and make I a big deal about it. I hope you see this message among all the negative ones on this thread and well done for being a super night time parent. Know that sttn can be achieved and no one needs to cry about it

Dontbuyanewmum - thank you, really encouraging and helpful!

Bumbleymummy - I don't know, I've never left them!

I second Jay Gordon- v gentle. But they absolutely will cry whatever you do. It's how they tell you you're not doing what they want. There's a difference between leaving them to cry and giving them a cuddle while they have a cry because you're not feeding them. If you want zero tears then you might have to wait until you can talk it through with them but that's not going to be for a while!

I'm no expert but I guess it's learnt behaviour , if they've only ever known been fed to fall asleep then that's how they think it is to fall asleep if that missing then of course they react by crying , you don't want them to cry it out so you feed them . And on it goes .

I don't see how you can change it other than not feeding them during the night and letting them settle back down them selfs . It will be hard though .

Yes Phil not Jay, sorry!

Mummybear1988 have you got twins ??

Thank you very much everyone, I have read all your posts, sorry, I haven't replied to them all, I'm slow and new to mumsnet! Lots of great advice and reassurance. They are sleeping next to me now so I hope this is passing onto them somehow! Thanks!

I've never breastfed, so I could be way off, but I think maybe it's time you weaned them off it. For your own sanity. Ten times? Two of them?! Twenty plus separate lots of tears!

It doesn't sound like it's doing any of the three of you any good any more. I have no clue about weaning, or switching to bottles, but someone else surely will.

I think by this age ds was getting a glass of cows milk before bed, his cot was huge, and one of us would get in and cuddle him and sing him to sleep. The trouble started when he was a two, and got his bed. We had to do the super nanny, constantly putting him back to bed thing, but it worked after a few weeks.

Firstly, well done for feeding twins for so long. You've done, and are doing brilliantly. We had a similar situation with my first born. We eventually moved him in to his own cot at 15 months. To start with I got in beside him and fed him to sleep in there. Once he was used to being in his own bed, we moved his last feed to BEFORE his batht, and then we stuck to a short bedtime routine, massage, and the same book each night. My husband then did gradual retreat and within a week and no tears later, he was sleeping through the night.
Best of luck and once again, well done, OP!

I just wanted to say well done to you. You'll get plenty telling you it's not normal yadda yadda, but when your babies as so happily soothed by cuddling close and feeding, it's not a bad thing!!

They will loose interest as they grow and want to explore the world. Honestly!
Giving them the tools to self soothe without crying will help. Some of my friends kids started to sleep with an old vest as a comfort, as it smelled of mum/milk.
It's so hard when you're in the thick of it and most have kids seem to sleep through.
If they are happy during the day and not over tired and you can get some rest whilst they feed, then I would just carry on!
Otherwise experience tells me that you need to teach/encourage self settling at nap times first, then transfer it to night time wakings.

When they wake, try offering them water if they'll take it....keep doing this and soon enough it will become boring for them and hopefully will change their learned behaviour. It may take a week or two. Good luck

op having twins is alot more differrent to a singleton as im sure your finding out especially where sleep problems are concerned

you really need to find info on sleep problems with twins,have you tried TAMBA online for some help or they may have a helpline or local group

I tried everything with my DD but ultimately it was cc that worked. I never, ever (ever) thought I'd hear myself saying that because I was no anti cc, but it's true. For the sake of our sanity and our relationship I decided the pris would outweigh the cons... After 3 nights she was either sleeping through or settling herself, without crying, if she woke up.

I would be totally deranged if I was still getting broken sleep at 18 months.

How will a child learn how to fall asleep if they are never given the opportunity to experience it for themselves.

We co-slept and DS used to wake up several times for milk during the night. Then one night I fell asleep on the couch watching a movie and DH went to bed with DS. He barely stirred during the night! Maybe worth a try just to see how they react? If they settle better when you're not there maybe you could try sleeping in a different room for a few nights?

DD1 was an unsettled sleeper to say the least and was regularly fed to sleep. In the end I followed a "gradual retreat" method which was slow, but worked. I started by holding in our bed instead of feeding. Then holding in a chair, then holding hands and soothing in her cot and so on, until I could wait outside her room and she would settle. It was slow, but effective. Just follow your instincts. We tried controlled crying once and it did not suit us. There is no right way or wrong way, just feel your way slowly. Good luck.

You keep saying they have a good bed routine, but they don't really do they as they haven't learned to self settle at all? Being able to go to bed and settle to sleep is a major part of the bed routine and is a key thing in their development. I appreciate you've chosen to parent very differently to me but I just couldn't have coped with that at all. I have two 13 months apart so not twins but still two babies at once. They had their moments but they did learn to self settle early (without screaming the house down). Maybe we were just lucky. Mine are teenagers now so it's a distant memory but they didn't have dummies either as they wouldn't take them.

My teenagers are the most laid back, well behaved and generally happy teens I know, so they don't seem to have been harmed by having to go to sleep without a boob stuck in their mouth.

You sound very caring and patient but my advise would be to get tough!

Yes, forgot to say I'm very impressed that you've managed to breast feed twins for this long! I managed to do some gentle weaning of my 18 month old recently. There were a few tears but lots of cuddles and we're still cosleeping. He will occasionally put his hand down my top in bed now but hasn't asked to feed for a while

This is in the realm of normal behaviour!
We were the same with DS. Also didn't want to let him cry.
We night weaned at 2. We spoke a lot about it before doing and read a book called Nursies When the Sun Shines. He was giving cues he was ready.
It was all done in a few nights, no crying, bit of moaning.
Was lot less painful than I was expecting.
Have a look at the Milk Meg too, on Facebook and has a website. Great info about feeding toddlers and sleep issues.
Well done for bf two for this time, the sleep will improve.
My son (3) will now go to sleep without milk for me, his dad, grandparents and does 10/11 hours without waking, still bfs by day.

Try the Blissful Baby Expert, she is fantastic! We signed up to her gold membership (I think it was about £100 for the year) and it was the best money we have spent since becoming parents! She sorted our sleep problems with our little one and we haven't looked back. Good luck!

Have you called the la leche league? They could be v helpful in your situation.

I never had twins, but what you are describing sounds incredibly normal to me for babies of this age. They can be so clingy/overwhelmingly needy/suffocating at that age and upping the bf frequency is normal (I have fed four toddlers this age). We got through it by DH taking turns and learning other ways to settle them. He is v empathetic, willing, hands on and calm. Had he been a different kind of dad I suspect that would not have worked. There's a book called Mothering your nursing toddler that might be good to look at if you ever get a second.

It will pass eventually no matter what you do or don't do. Good luck finding what works for your family.

I bought the no cry sleep solution. I was so tired that I don't think I managed to finish it..... I have no answers, other than that at some unspecified point in the future , they will stop waking 4 times a night and only wake twice. Then once. Then years later your brain will recover enough for you to vaguely recall buying a book called "the no cry sleep solution" although you'll never remember the end, or what the solution was.

I was also going to suggest No Cry Sleep Solution.

I really feel for you OP. I had very tricky sleepers so don't feel that you've made them behave this way - there are children that are ace at self-settling and ones that just don't get it. DS1 is still fairly bad at actually settling down to sleep and he's 7, but now we let him get on with it in his own time and it's much less stressful!

I think you've got several issues to think about - settling twins in the first place, settling them without feeding and settling them during the night without feeding them. They do not need milk during the night at this age and however you tackle it you aren't harming them by depriving them of it but it will take some getting used to. I definitely think you need advice from people who have twins. I also think you need to give the sleep-training books to your DH and tell him to reduce the advice to one A4 sheet of bullet points that you can read and understand. Get him involved (which presumably he's not at the moment if you're doing all the feeding). If you can, let him plan and run this to take some pressure off you - I can't imagine how you can make any decisions at all if you're spending all your time feeding and cuddling and waking up ten times a night. Agree on a strategy and stick to it.

I'd have let my children do literally anything for the chance to get some sleep so don't feel judged. You will be able to get them out of this habit and it's worked to some extent for you up to now, so very well done.

Op you're clearly a lovely mum but you need to realise that children cry sometimes and that allowing your children to express themselves by crying sometimes does not mean you are a bad parent.

Teaching your twins to fall asleep on their own - allowing them to learn to self soothe - is hugely important. The problem is that you've fed them to sleep for so long that it is highly unlikely you'll be able to make any changes now without some crying.

That doesn't mean you need to resort to CiO though.

There are various tactics you can try without leaving them to 'cry it out', you can cuddle and comfort, just not resort to breastfeeding. They will cry. You have to get over that. It is normal for toddlers to express themselves by crying. But that doesn't mean you just abandon them and let them get on with it....

Would you consider a sleep consultant? There are loads of good consultants out there and they are the experts in helping parents to reverse the kind of dire situation you've got yourself into.

Honestly, you - and your twins - will be so much happier once they are at least able to settle themselves. Granted, they may not sleep through - it's totally normal for children to wake in the night at 18m - but if you can just get them self settling even some of the time it would be a damn sight better than the situation you describe in your posts.