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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To move to France?

132 replies

FasterThanASnakeAndAMongoose · 28/09/2016 15:33

Dh has the opportunity to transfer to the French office of his company. It's in a nice bit of the south of France.

We have 2 dc (7 months and 2yo). I am on maternity leave from my teaching job. I could potentially find work teaching in France (I have a French degree and am bilingual). Resettlement package is good. We could rent our house out and rent over there while we decided if we wanted to make it permanent. Kids could grow up bilingual. The lifestyle would be great. We could go skiing at the weekends and drink wine and go to French supermarkets.

On the other hand...

Dh doesn't speak a word of French. The company does all business in English but he'd still have to learn if we were living there. I could teach him though, and work would also help with tutoring.

Our life here is really good. We have loads of friends. We've just spent a fortune renovating our house - much more than we would have if we were going to rent it out. We're in the catchment for the best state schools in our town. Our families are all within a few hours drive. Parents are getting older and might need us more (although they all think we should go). I'd have to give up my job which I love.

We would initially go for a couple of years, but even that would be such an upheaval. My job would be gone, we'd miss the school application process for our eldest.

I think it could be really great but I'm also completely terrified at the thought and feel so sad at the idea of leaving our life here behind.

Has anyone done this? Any regrets or tips? Should we just go for it? I don't know what to do.

OP posts:
PinkPlastic · 01/10/2016 20:32

We are in a french speaking country. After almost 6 years here (and 3 years in France) Dh doesn't speak good french. He means to get round to it but what with his job (100% in English) and the kids and dealing with the bureaucracy he never manages much. Leaning a language as an adult is hard if your job in in your native language. Which means that feeling settled is hard too.

We used to live in France and left. I both loved it and hated it. Loved the food, the people, the countryside, the history, the wine, the language. But hated the sodding bureaucracy, the people, the language, the taxes and the fact that come winter so much of rural France seems to hibernate.

That said, fuck it and go. The DCs are young enough. You only live once!

GloriaGaynor · 01/10/2016 20:38

But, and it is a big enough but to make us want to leave, the political situation is becoming very, very uncomfortable. The rise in nationalism and antiislamism is tangible and very, very present

You'll find the same here though. Post-Brexit the UK is a different country - many people comment that they don't recognise it. Nationalist, xenophobic, racist, bitterly divided by rifts that will only deepen over time, particularly if we end up with a hard Brexit.

The rise of nationalism and Islamophobia is a worldwide phenomenon unfortunately.

GloriaGaynor · 01/10/2016 20:42

Overnight we have become a country that does not welcome foreigners and many people here without a British passport feel anxious and unwelcome.

Liara · 01/10/2016 20:46

I'm really sorry to hear that, Gloria.

However, it is the level of institutionalised anti islamism that makes me so uncomfortable. I follow the news in the UK fairly closely, and I have seen nothing in the mainstream political discourse like the kind of things Sarkozy is coming out with right now (the burka should be banned everywhere, if you want to live in France you must be like the French, etc. etc.). You also have schools here that are refusing to provide non pork meals for muslims, girls being sent back home for wearing a long black skirt (yes, really, just a long black skirt) and so on. It just seems a notch more aggressive than elsewhere. And as an outsider (which I will forever be here) I do not feel as able to safely challenge it as I would at home.

Liara · 01/10/2016 20:49

I find it really, really scary that in living memory of WW2 this kind of thing can be going on in Europe, tbh.

Is there anywhere that is better? I want to live somewhere that is not ruled by hate and fear.

Coconutty · 01/10/2016 20:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bobochic · 01/10/2016 20:50

Right now I don't think that there is anything much to choose between England and France when it comes to xenophobia. The details might be different but the general trend is pretty similar.

PinkPlastic · 01/10/2016 20:52

GloriaGaynor - sorry but i disagree. I know there are post Brexit issues and cases of xenophobia in UK but they are some what isolated and in the minority in comparrison to what is going on in France right now. It is a different kettle of fish completly. A good point to consider OP.

mixety · 01/10/2016 20:57

I think part of the reason it is harder to integrate in France is that public and private life is much more separate. In the UK there is a pub culture and I think generally people are more open to striking up conversation out and about, making friends with mums at school gates, at clubs etc. In France I think most socialising goes on behind closed doors, at dinner parties and in private circles. It can be hard to "gain access" as a newcomer.

As someone whose DP is French it was easier for me to integrate via his established friend and family networks. I think my experience of France would be totally different without him. I've got lots of expat friends, but nearly all my French friends are via DP. I've only managed to make a very few on my own and they are not "invite each other round for dinner" type friends, more just acquaintances.

MrsMerchant · 01/10/2016 21:03

As an ex expat child, stay. I had multiple problems with depression as an adult due to the upheaval. On paper maybe a good opportunity but make sure you know about reverse culture shock and make sure you realise how lonely being an expat child is. I had some nice times but I wish I had not gone.
If you do go, please pay attention to your kids and how they feel. Don't just be like "this is the way it is, deal with it". Do it as a family unit. You will need each other more than ever if you go. Xx

inoa77 · 01/10/2016 21:05

Forgot to add that my Dcs are almost exactly the same age as yours, OP - so I can relate with your dilemmas.

I loved being an expat, have been one for most of my adult life, and in different countries, but still would advise against expatriation in France.

About language, 'learning French' or 'speaking French' is different from mastering a language, being able to crack some jokes and understanding the locals' sense of humour and what underlies it, share a proper conversation beyond asking for a baguette with a charming accent that everyone will find melting (like every single French people, I absolutely adore the British accent) - of course people will be friendly if you try to speak a few words. Even friendly tout court in most cases. But it does not mean in the least you will integrate. Mastering a language, which means a deep familiarity with the culture that produced it, takes many, many years, it is hard work, and a long term personal investment.

I have to admit I am deeply biased in favor of the UK though - lived in many different places, included villages, but NEVER had issues meeting people and making friends. I cannot stress this point enough. I have always found that people were quite nice and trusting (whether you are a church goer or not, amazingly :) .

I experience the exact reverse here: people tend to be suspicious first, it is incredibly difficult to simply chat. And that, in itself, can be isolating very quickly.

One example - and I think it is quite relevant for the OP: when I lived in the UK, I attended a few playgrounds. Every single time I did, I ended up talking to other mums, effortlessly. We just chatted, starting with our babies, then a bit about ourselves, ect. Well, chatting, you know. Having a bit of a social life, even if just for a few minutes.

Ever since I arrived in France, and that is more than 8 months ago, I did go to many 'ludothèques' (which are usually very nice, huge rooms where you find lots of toys for children of various ages), sat there while my DCs were doing their stuff, alongside other mums, and no one said a single word to each other. It invariably struck me as being absurd: sitting there, with other adults, watching our kids, and never uttering a single word to each other. I tried once or twice to initiate a conversation but it died off very quickly - anything beyond: 'what age is yours' seems to be frowned upon.

Unsurprisingly enough, there is only one occasion when I managed to properly 'chat' with another mum: she was French, like myself a ex- expat, coming back from the US, where she had lived for 20 years, and finding it just very hard to adjust to France.

Being a mum to two young Dcs can, in itself, be a bit of an isolated experience if you don't work. Being abroad can multiply this isolation exponentially, and it is bound to affect your experience so it is also something to think about. I would carefully look at your job options in France before making the jump for that reason, too.

SK28 · 01/10/2016 21:06

I've not read the whole thread but just to chip in with my experience. A year ago I moved to Eastern Europe with my DH and our 9mo DD. It was a great career move for him, it meant I could be a SAHM with no financial pressure and we are saving lots of money. Our UK home is rented out and we fly back often.

I'm ready to move back home. My DH works and has a social life and friends. He loves it here. But I miss my family and friends a lot; my social group are other expat mums - all nice but not all real friends. There are very limited activities I can do with my DD without the local language, which is not an easy one to learn (as someone with a degree in languages, this makes me really uncomfortable). I am fed up of flying so often on my own with a 20mo but when we don't fly often I miss my people.

On balance, I'm glad we did it. It was an opportunity worth taking and there have been good experiences in this year. For me it's not worked out. BUT France is a different kettle of fish, and if you speak the language and plan to work, that makes it a different situation too and one that I think is very promising. Raising kids bilingual is a real gift to them and they will benefit so much from experiencing a different culture and so on.

I say go for it. The worst that will happen is you'll decide in a year or so that it isn't the right thing for your family long-term, in which case you'll move back and all the people and things and places you love will still be there!

Good luck!

Beachcomber · 01/10/2016 21:08

I've lived here for nearly 20 years and there have obviously been ups and downs in those years which would be the case no matter where I lived.

Here are my thoughts. The job market is tricky here for people who don't have French qualifications and properly fluent French. I don't think you would walk into a teaching job other than as an EFL vacataire (which can be great but it lacks stability and is under paid).
The general bureaucracy is very irritating but not as bad as it used to be.
Do not under estimate homesickness - it's impossible to know beforehand how affected you will be but you certainly will be to some degree.

On the plus side, the standard of living is pretty good thanks to a good health system, a relatively socialist society plus good weather and nice countryside. I agree with a previous poster who says don't romanticize, think about day to day living and what that will be for you in a foreign language, culture and network. Having said that if you initially come for a couple of years with options to go back if you want to, you haven't really got much to lose and it will probably be a great experience.

GloriaGaynor · 01/10/2016 21:18

PinkPlastic I think some people have a vested interest in minimising the explosion of xenophobia since Brexit. And people with mainly British friends or who live in predominately white areas, are less likely to have direct experience of it. The rise in racist hate crime speaks for itself.

At the same time I can't disagree that France is more racist than the UK, it always has been.

But France has just experienced devastating attacks and people become aggressive when they're afraid. There was a similar mood here after 7/7, and in the US after 9/11.

The way things are going I think the UK it's quite possible the burqa will end up being banned.

NameChange30 · 01/10/2016 21:51

I agree with Merde:
"I agree with many of the observations that inoa has made. It's a wonderful place to visit but living in France is totally different to holidaying in France.
Listen carefully to what french residents and ex pats are saying because they are talking about the reality rather than the fantasy."

I also think Liara makes some important points, especially about the shocking level of Islamophobia that seems to be acceptable in mainstream media and political discourse.

That's what I was alluding to when I said (earlier in the thread) that the UK feels more progressive and tolerant than France. Of course it's a generalisation and we have big issues with racism and xenophobia too. But I find the French intégriste philosophy rather problematic.

Also, apologies for another generalisation, but I do think the UK is slightly more progressive when it comes to gender equality and gender roles.

blissfullyaware · 02/10/2016 00:15

Go- because you have a long life and it needs to be broken up a bit.

This will give you a different perspective and experience, language skills and a different set of friends.

Do a couple of years and come back. All will still be waiting for you.

Stop worrying. Just do it.

blissfullyaware · 02/10/2016 00:27

Ok so I read a bit more of everyone's posts and they all make good points. The thing is it's based on their experience. And their view of how they experience life their. Your experience will be unique to you and it's your choice what you make if it.

It's an adventure. And your bilingual which is fantastic as you can use that skill.

Please just do it. Forget the politics - that will be wherever you go. The burka isn't a reason to not go to France holy Moses!

blissfullyaware · 02/10/2016 00:28

*There not their

blissfullyaware · 02/10/2016 00:29

Sorry rereading - so many typos! I give up!!

Shawser78 · 02/10/2016 06:30

Currently an expat living in Kuwait. Do it. That's all I can say. It's hand in heart the best thing we've done as a family. We can't speak any Arabic but my children are learning and we are picking it up. We've met and are now people from all over the world and its giving our kids such a different view of the world. Even if it's only for a few years do it. Best of luck!

Shawser78 · 02/10/2016 06:30

*now friends with

FasterThanASnakeAndAMongoose · 03/10/2016 15:01

Hello! I'm still here and following with great interest. Thank you all so much for your contributions. There have been some really good points that I hadn't considered, especially to do with the political climate.

The UK has certainly changed since the Brexit vote. Russian expat (20 years ago!) and Muslim friends of ours have experienced overt racism, and I've seen some appaling headlines on the tabloids recently. Racists seem to feel that their views are now socially acceptable. We've certainly fallen out with a couple of people since Brexit. One is an unsuccessful plumber blaming eastern Europeans for his inability to find work. No mate, you're just a crap plumber...

Saying that though, I know France is perhaps more tense, especially since the terrible attack in Nice. I noticed a heavy police presence in southern France on holiday recently.

The dcs' schooling is a worry. We'd never intended to put them in private school. I'm a teacher in the state system and believe very passionately in non selective comprehensives. If we stay here, they will go to one of the excellent local state schools.

However, unless things have changed drastically in the past 10-15 years, I would have serious concerns about them going into the French state system. Aside from the rote learning and lack of different, the 2 schools I taught in lacked inclusion and there was a real lack of care. Children would come to school stinking of urine, or they wouldn't come to school for a week or 2 because they'd been in temporary emergency care in another town. School didn't know or care where they were and there was no support from them when they came back. Just awful.

OP posts:
FasterThanASnakeAndAMongoose · 03/10/2016 15:46

*lack of differentiation.

OP posts:
foreverandalways · 03/10/2016 15:48

Why on earth are you questioning such a fantastic, fabulous, life changing opportunity...your children will definitely Thankyou for it in years to come.....just pack up and GO!! X

NameChange30 · 03/10/2016 17:10

^ RTFT!