- To not want to move back to Australia under these circumstances?

[justilou]

We are living in Europe and barely scraping by. We've been here 7 years and we're both over it. My husband's job is great, but I can't work here. He is talking about moving back to Aus and taking a giant step backwards professionally - we would still be broke, but I could work there. When we moved here, it was for his professional development and the understanding was that when we moved back, I could study and further my career - I can't see that happening with three kids and a job, can you? He sees this position as a foot in the door, but he's 40 and I'm really tired of starting over again with nothing. If he does end up changing jobs, we'd have to move the kids and change schools AGAIN! I would be happy to go back to Aus, to work and to study, but I'm exhausted trying to make ends meet. Should I put my foot down and insist that he wait for a better position?

Aussie here. Have you calculated what you would receive from Centrelink? Their online calculator is very accurate. Depending on where you are moving back to, $70k is actually a pretty decent wage for one person who is taking a career step backwards.

There are academically selective schools in NSW, Vic and Qld that I know of. And some schools offer IB, if you have concerns about how well an Australian high school certificate translates overseas.

It depends on where you intend living in Australia. There are huge disparities in housing, travel, fuel, electricity and to some extent food costs between States and even city vs urban or rural areas.

The national curriculum is addressing uniformity in education standards (it still has a way to go) but, again dependant on the area you choose to live in you always have options for education. That said basing education choices for three children on one child's desire to study Latin seems a little shortsighted IMO

There are selective government schools in every state and territory other than the NT. Latin is readily available in capital cities. I can't imagine what private day school would charge you $70k pa, unless you mean for 3 children in secondary. There are also government IB schools and scholarships to private grammars, as PP mentioned. That's not to say it would be the same as a Gymnasium, and there are plenty of reasons not to move here if you don't feel like it.

I've never known anyone with a professional job to take a step back professionally moving when going from Europe to Australia. DH and I recently applied for a work visa on his points and despite my having no degree, I was offered more senior positions on double my UK salary (even taking currency into account). Your dh should apply for a job from here & do his research before you go back, as there's a huge market there for European professionals.

Op you know your family best

If you think now isn't a good time to move the kids and your dh will be unhappy in a new lower down job then you know best , just tell him how you feel and to be patient

I'm guessing with the mention of gymnasium that you're in the Netherlands. It sounds to me like it would be better for your family if you found a way for you to work. After 7 years aren't you eligible for permanent residence? That would make you eligible to work and I think for low university tuition fees so you could study.

If you find that crystal ball, please hand it over!

We have 4 dds 9, 8, 6 and 4. We've been in London for 14 years. I am so mixed as to where to be. We'd only go to Melbourne, but it is expensive, and while some things would be cheaper (buying a house), things like medical insurance and food would be much higher. We'd be moving without jobs. You're right that some areas may struggle to find work. My dp would struggle to find work in the same sector as it is huge in London and very narrow in Melbourne.

Most importantly, as have a dd with ASD and we are unsure of provision in school for her. But there are decent high schools at Ho,e. From what we've researched their is a g&t type programme that exists, and MacRons is a selective girls school, though I don't think it starts from y7. Their are, apparently, also selective -ish primary's.

imip - are you all Australian citizens? If not, the Immigration dept here is a bit sniffy about children diagnosed with ASD :( (and other disabilities and health conditions - the whole healthcare cost/"burden to the state" type of thing).
School provision varies enormously - there are quite a lot of children in Ds1's primary school with ASD and related conditions; also a fair number with other issues, including FAS (foetal alcohol syndrome). The school has some good support though, partly because our area is recognised as a low socio-economic demographic with "problems" - and yes, there is a decent GATs programme as well. But I only really know about the schools in our area, nowhere else.

Thumb, I do the cupboard stuff and meat from Coles, and do fruit and vegetables from the local fruit market. I raid the section at the grocer of stuff that's on super special because it's about to go off and make meals around that. I'm not working now so have the time to do that. If we ate how we did in London it would probably work out the same, but we used to do all our groceries on Ocado, and wouldn't think too much about how much we were spending week to week as I was working full time. I am really enjoying the fresh fruit and veg and eating seasonally. REALLY looking forward to mango season coming up!

Thanks thumbs, yes, all Australian citizens...

Rather ironically dd is on some communication programmes here that are Australian. I do expect it to be every bit as piecemeal and patchy as it is on the UK :-(

To be really honest, $70,000 isn't a huge wage in Australia, especially if it will be supporting the whole family.

I'm single and on around $60k and it doesn't go that far with the high bills and housing costs.

We briefly considered it (husband Australian) but food was so much more expensive, as was housing (different if you're comparing to London I know!) Also the jobs we do didn't pay comparatively more.

Our quality of life is better here (not London!) as there is so much outdoors stuff we can do free, amd so much variety on our doorstep. Ironically in Melbourne you could have to drive an hour or so just to get out of Melbourne to find the great outdoors!

If the choice was London or Melbourne and I had a London property I could be convinced. There's lots I love. But where we are vs Melbourne we certainly wouldn't (couldn't financially?) move. It doesn't look overly like it's a good move for you either?

Thanks for all the school tips - I will definitely look into those if we're going back. The course I want to do is quite specific. It is only available as a full-time, full-attendance course as much of it is clinical placements. It is something I know I would love, utilizes my skill set and has really good employment prospects, so it would eventually take some of the pressure off him. We are all Aussies, but have been in the Netherlands (Not Germany, but close) for seven years. My husband is a coach and works in elite sport. (Olympic level). Jobs in his field are few and far between, and while not well-paid, he has a permanent contract. My kids have been to Australia but don't remember living there. Since we've been here, the cost of living has gone up a lot, and his pay will not. (Stupid contract). On one hand we have a kid who is ecstatically happy at high school - on the other hand we have just had to make a police report about how my son was assaulted by an adult in a supervisory position at his primary school. (Long story, but we liokjng at changing their school even though we don't know if we're staying here) Neither of my younger two are coming close to their potential academically because they are flying under the radar. (Quiet, well-behaved kids who don't get their teachers' attention.) So... one of the reasons Australia is more attractive is because we know what to expect and wouldn't have to fight so hard and so continuously to get even close to it.

My husband is the romantic one - he idolizes Australia as "home" but his family has split up all around the place and his friends have moved as well. My family is useless and I can see moving to the same town as my mother causing more problems than we can cope with.... Whenever we've been back there, all our friends make a big effort to catch up, etc and he thinks that's what life will be like if we return. (Yes, we will see them more often than we do, but it's not all sunshine and bbq's, right?) He decides that things "SHOULD" be a certain way (cost so much money, be of a certain quality, have decent public transport, etc) and does no research. This has gotten us in trouble several times before and I can see it happening again. (Example - we are living on the "wrong" side of town, with neighbours from hell in a run-down shitbox 1970's house that he had his heart set on because it has a mini-canal thing behind it. With Australian eyes, that kind of feature would mean that there was potential for growth and financial gain. Here nobody gives a toss and our house has devalued significantly since we got here. When we sell, we WILL lose money. (I only agreed to buy this after I was totally worn down by his stubborn refusal to see the positives on the "good" side of town where we would have ended up spending less and making money.) I want to know that if we uproot the kids, that we're going to be able to afford some kind of lifestyle. I want to be able to enrol them in extra-curricular activities so they can establish friendships, learn how to be Aussies, etc. I want a happy husband to come home to. I don't want to have to move them to another city within six months and uproot them again. (Can totally see that happening). I am worried that like with the house here, he is being blinkered by his idealized view of live in Aus and we're going to be up the creek and resenting each other.

imip - if I could afford to, I'd go to Melbourne in a heartbeat. I love it there. Has a lot more to offer re-services for kids with special needs than Brisbane from what I gather. I have close (Aussie) friends who have returned from London to Brisbane. They both had well-paid jobs and have both taken professional steps backwards, and seem to be over-looked for more senior positions despite their experience, and have found that the lifestyle they were moving back to Aus for is unachievable. They are struggling, their marriage is under pressure and they feel that despite their "research" they were very naive about how hard life has been for them since they returned.

Does it have to be Netherlands or Australia? Depending on his sport could he not look for roles in the rest of Europe or North America? Are there headhunters/recruitment specialists for his sort of thing that could help find another placement?

Canyou- you are sort of right. (But I'm over 40) I've done quite well for myself in the past and have no desire to get back into the limelight. Because both our jobs involve travel and someone has to parent, I chose to take the cut. There is much more money in sport than opera in this climate. Wedding singing is realistic, but slow to get going. More than happy to do it, but we have to be practical from the outset. The course I want to do would kick off a new career but in a different direction. (More medical than performance, and there are good employment prospects - and I'd be happy)
Thanks for being supportive of my daughter's genuine passion (and talent) for classical languages. I agree that it is difficult to see how they will apply in her adult life, but I know how hard she works and I truly want to her work with her skill set and be happy. If she continues, she will have more choices available when she's old enough to know what she wants to do with her life. She is also learning Ancient Greek, German, French, Spanish and Russian, loving it and doing really well.

To address other suggestions - I have travelled all my adult life. In fact, this is the longest I've lived in one house and one city. I don't see "home" as a place anymore. It is wherever my family happens to be. I totally get the need for a community, but I don't really have that here, and in Australia "my people" are scattered to the winds also.

I wouldn't care if my house burned down as long as my husband, kids and dog got out safely. Moving without stuff is much more appealing than taking it with me. My husband is much more sentimental and has accumulated a lot more stuff than I have. I have two pices of furniture I'd like to bring if I move (belonged to my grandmother) but if I couldn't bring them, I'd be fine.

I can say unequivecably that food, utilities, travel, clothes, medical bills, medicines, toiletries, insurance, etc are MUCH more expensive in Aus.

Carrot - he is just starting to look at rest or Europe and USA but really wants to go "home".

I can see why you might not want to move back to Australia. Elite sport is mostly concentrated in the big cities which are eye-wateringly expensive now, and everyone I know who is a professional musician (with very few exceptions) has moved to Germany or the Netherlands in order to have a career. You're also right to an extent about schools - while there are state selective schools that are extremely academic they are in the big cities, and there aren't many of them (I'm only aware of four in Sydney, two for girls and two for boys).

Have you run a sample budget, just side by side numbers listing expense type and average monthly cost where you are and in Oz, to discuss the reality of this with your husband? If you also run a long-term side-by-side scenario (eg in four years time, you complete degree, family income goes up to x) for incoming and outgoing money, he can start to see the impacts longer term of taking a career step backwards.

Oh dear that sounds bloody difficult! I think, under those circs, the ONLY way I'd consider returning is if I had full control of where we'd end up living (within job range, of course!) so that at least you didn't end up in the same sort of impractical mess you're in now :(

So sorry, what a dilemma. But one thing your H should remember is that you can never truly "go back"; it's never quite the same and if he's romantically idealising, he's pretty much doomed to disappointment.

You know what, you sound like the kind of family who could go on that show "wanted down under" or whatever it's called - have a "move or don't" focussed trip where the actual numbers are looked at properly. I massively empathise with your dilemma, we're from Australia, family both here and there. A few years back around when my youngest started school I think we might have gone back if I'd shown any interest - but I like the climate better in the UK! Now I'd want our children to finish school here no matter what (year 7 and 9 now); but both promise that they'll "move to Australia when they grow up" - we'll see, a lot will depend on their career paths in the long run. Australia is "small" for some careers (music in particular) and a long long way from other places.

Pythonesque - I love that show! I have been shouting at the tv "You have no idea what you're doing!!!" They either end up broke or living somewhere dodgy. Personally I like the cold, so it's not an issue for me. (In an ideal world, I'd be living in Scandinavia, but it's not for himself, unfortunately...) The world has almost totally shut down classical music, and I'm kind of okay with that. As I've said, I have other plans. Just need to get them into play. I'm thinking of contacting my friends who moved back to Aus and staging a Skype call on the weekend so that they can let him know how they honestly feel about moving "back". I love the guy, but I can see us jumping out of the frying pan into the fire if we go back under these circumstances. I also agree that you can't jump back into your old life. I've heard that expats often find it really difficult to go "home" - that it's easier to move to a different country than back. I'm pretty flexible if the conditions are right!

This is a real dilemma. You will only get very good language education on a capital city, where it is expensive to live. Is Canberra an option (Australian institute of sport?)?. Can you persuade your Sh to hold out for a better Ayung job? I do think you will be sawing one set of challenging circumstances for another.

DH
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Early morning here

The more you write, the more I think you should stay put. I definitely think that Skype call with some hard core priming beforehand might help you convince him it's a bad move.

Given his romantic notions, not great salary offer, 'home blindness' & previous history, what he 'wants' needs to take a backseat to your pragmatic view. You can't stop him going, but you can effectively by refusing to go & refusing to allow the children to go.

If I were you I'd work out exactly what we needed to happen to make it possible, write a list & tell him you'll consider it when he can tick that list. Something like...

• House cost $xxx,xxx (find realistic prices in an area YOU are happy to live in)

• Bills (get Aussie friends to help)

• Food (friends to help)

• School for X child - needs xyz lessons
• School for y child - needs xyz lessons/activities
• School for z child - needs xyz lessons/activities

• Whatever YOU need for friendships/work/study etc

• What does he need to earn to make thus feasible?

Then make him do the leg work, instead of leaving it up to you while he dreams about nightly BBQ's with friends & 24/7/52 sunshine, friends, family, fun... Make it clear & detailed what he needs to resolve before you'll consider it.

and dog
I'm afraid that that alone would make me think twice about returning to Australia. I know the entry for pets has relaxed, but you still have to consider the stress that the dog is going to go through.