To be just a tiny bit bothered by what I saw at my son's nursery this morning?

[KingofnightvisionKingofinsight]

My 3-year-old DS just started at a new nursery. The teachers are lovely and kind and DS seems happy, and obviously that's most important. But anyway...

This morning at dropoff DS wanted me to stay for a few minutes so I did. I watched him sit down at a craft table set with lovely materials including glue, glitter, scraps of fabric and cotton wool, and small yellow paper circles. My DS spent several minutes carefully applying dumping half a bottle of glue to a good portion of his paper, and then he asked the teacher to pass him some glitter. She very sweetly encouraged him to put more glue on other parts of the paper first, which he did, and then she gave him the glitter. A minute later she gave him a yellow circle. He started to glue it at the bottom of the paper, but she gently corrected him, saying that the sun belongs at the top. She then pointed to a sample project that had been made. It was a picture of the beach, with an ocean of blue fabric scraps and glitter, cotton clouds, and in the top right corner a yellow paper sun. My DS dutifully copied the sample picture and proudly showed me his beach.

AIBU to be a little sad that the nursery is giving the kids the idea of what to make and even showing them something to copy? Why can't they just put out the materials and let them create? I'm wondering if this is always the nursery's approach to art or if it's just this particular teacher. She is otherwise lovely so it's not like I would dislike her for this, but if this always how art and creativity are managed at the school it does give me a bit of pause. If it is I would still be happy with the school but I think I would like to engage them a bit (in a friendly, non-demanding way) about their reasons and figure out how it impacts other areas of the curriculum.

AIBU?

I had the opposite at my dds nursery. They just let them splodge paint everywhere. I think I'd have been glad if they'd shown her how to do a proper picture as she was capable. In your case, it was only guidance. He wasn't being told off for not knowing how to do it. When I opened the thread, I thought it would be about suspected child abuse or a rogue teacher being rough with one of the children. I'm glad it was nothing sinister

That right pax. Like all this angst into a 3 year old's painting, whichever 'method' ffs you use, is going to have any impact on the child's future A level, university or career choice.
I'd also hazard a guess that the parents bleating about freedom of expression for their dc in nursery will be the same parents 13-15 years down line whinging on here that they don't want their dc to do art for gcse or A level because it's not a 'proper' subject

Call me a twat for being blunt but a little boy has just died from suffocation whilst at nursery and you're getting upset that your son, who you have said is safe and cared for at nursery, is being gently guided to recognise where the sun sits in the sky?

Wow

Mozart never needed other people's sloppy seconds! Neither did Hemingway!

Op, if I was you, I would keep your PFB locked up in a room with no outside distractions, in order to encourage independent creativity.

unicornthong. Totally unnecessary. No matter what the thread is about on here, there's pretty much always going to be someone in a far worse situation. Mumsnet wouldn't exist if people didn't post about a wide variety of issues & worries. It's not Top Trumps.

Sorry I think the level of snark is unnecessary here, its a valid question on developing creativity and imagination - snarking just because Mumsnet allows it is childish and silly.

I don't think you are unreasonable to question it and think about it.

You would be unreasonable to go storming in, let rip at the teacher, hoik child out of nursery and go to the daily wail...

But thats not what you were saying at all!

As someone who does artistic things professionally (well, semi.. ok, people pay me for my work!)...

Copying IS a valuable learning tool, absolutely..

But equally, having the freedom to express oneself (damn this is hard to write without sounding like a cosmic twat) without conforming to 'THE RULES' is also really important.

I think you need to encourage experimentation with both really - I know that feeling like I had to stick to 'the rules' caused me quite a lot of stress as a child (even as quite a young child).. the thought that I was 'doing it wrong' actually put me off quite a bit.

However, having come back to art as an adult, now I have the confidence to do what I want, I also find learning 'the rules' pretty useful.

The two things I think that fucked me over FAR more as a child however than being pushed to conform to the rules, were..

1/ Being given crappy 'tools'.. shite paints, horrible cheap nasty paper, rubbish pencils.

Someone with poor motorskills as any small child has in comparison to an adult, is not going to get BETTER using rubbish materials. I am not saying toddlers should be given colouring pencils that cost £50 a tin, but try materials out yourself and if YOU think they are shit, and hard to use, and frustrating because they don't do what you want them to do.. your child certainly will too!

2/ Lack of parental enthusiasm/appreciation.

I don't care how often your child draws something to a mediocre standard - act like its fucking awesome unless or until they ask you for help to improve. If THEY are happy with the job they did, thats good enough, the time will come when they recognise the difference between what they aimed to achieve and what they actually did and they will ask for help and constructive criticism when that occurs (you can prompt that a bit by carefully asking if THEY are happy with it of course!).

YABU.

Imitation skills are a HUGE important BIG DEAL for 3 year olds.

I completely agree with WiddlinDiddlin. If the practice observed is typical, then it is very likely that the setting will receive a poor Ofsted outcome (if this is England) as child-centred education and creativity are core features of the EY framework. (Of course, this may well have been a one-off). We wouldn't have surrealism if artists were told there was a right and a wrong way to create pictures. I'm also quite taken aback by the snippiness of many of the responses on this thread.

This thread is just amazing!

Read the frippen thread title. The OP says she is "a tiny bit bothered". Did you all get that? I'll repeat it. A Tiny Bit Bothered.

It's right up there in the title. You don't even have to read the OP!

And FWIW, I remember DD2, who is now 15, and forecast A* for GCSE Art, coming home from nursery, upset that a teacher had told her that her picture wasn't very good. They were supposed to copy a picture of a snake, by sticking coloured penne pasta on to paper. She had stuck hers pretty randomly in her own pattern.

The leadership of the nursery changed not that long after, and I remember being very pleased to hear the new leader asking a child if they wanted to come and do some junk modelling - they could make anything they wanted.

Keep an eye, OP. This could just be part of the whole picture. As others have noted, the ability to copy is useful, but the freedom to experiment and learn for ones self is also very important.

Imitation skills are a HUGE important BIG DEAL for 3 year olds

It is but it's not appropriate in this instance and as many childcare workers have pointed out it's not considered good practice.

Glad to see the thread has gained some sanity. I agree with Widdlin - v sensible comments. And as PP reminded us, OP said she was a tiny bit bothered. I would be too. Not outraged or fuming. Just a bit... unimpressed.

Yanbu
I work in a pre school- let them explore and do it for themselves. Even displays we let the kids get on with it. He's 3. It's finding the fine motor skills and the dominant hand and pencil grasp that needs to be focused on right now, rather than all then pictures looking the same. That being said- it's probably for a display on the wall so I wouldn't overthink it too much

When artists talk about it being important to know the rules in order to break them, they're talking about things like perspective, light/shade etc. Not that a yellow circle goes at the top and a green stripe at the bottom because they're representing the sun and the grass. Learning the actual rules they're talking about is harder if we condition kids that everything they do ought to 'look like' something, because they will actually have to work for years to get anywhere near this.

The yellow circle would only go at the top if it was the middle of the day anyway.

Sanity, Merchant, Widdlin , etc... Thank you!! It's hilarious to read all of the posts telling me to CALM DOWN and STOP GETTING SO WOUND UP, and FGS THINK OF THE CHILDREN WHO DON'T EVEN HAVE SHOES LET ALONE GLITTER AND FABRIC SCRAPS!!! I've literally gone back to reread my posts like 5 times to make sure I wasn't going crazy. I knew AIBU was snarky but I never realized how much people literally make things up just to help them be more obnoxious! As it turns out, the snark just doesn't have the same impact when it's based on fantasy rather than the OP's posts.

Anyway, someone yesterday asked about good books to support open-ended creativity. I have the first two books listed below and they are great, although to be honest you could probably find most of the ideas just by digging around on Pinterest for a while. The first is for younger toddlers and the second is geared toward around age 6 and up. The third one I don't have but I think I will get, as it seems appropriate to this discussion. (Not surprisingly, 2 out of these 3 books are not widely available in the UK. You can have them shipped though.)

First Art Experiences for Toddlers and Twos

www.amazon.co.uk/First-Art-Experiences-Toddlers-Twos/dp/0876592221

Tinkerlab: A Hands-On Guide for Little Inventors

www.amazon.co.uk/Tinkerlab-Hands-Guide-Little-Inventors/dp/161180065X

Preschool Art: It's the Process, Not the Product

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0876591683/ref=pd_aw_sim_14_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=VSSR3XYPHRTPXJG4XCNW

Ohh OP have only just noticed your username - one of the greatest songs ever! Anyway YANBU and your last rant has made me laugh.

Think it's fine to be a tiny bit bothered as you said. Copying has its place, fine, but he's not working on a production line is he?

I'd casually check that not all 'craft projects' are like this.

'Crafting' seems to have become a byword for 'assembly' in some cases.

I get it... My children (and their cohort) used to bring artwork home from junior school that was very pleasing on the eye but way beyond what they could achieve on their own. I mentioned this to head of art once, who said the teacher liked to put the finishing touches on kids' work so that it looked good and they could be proud of it! Hashtag irony

I have seen the same prescriptive pictures churned out of the local nursery for 25 years, it's nothing new! The children 'make' something for mummy or daddy who expect it, or else they are asked what did you do today, the response of 'I played' is met with and what else?

Well, I sat at the playdough table and rolled the dough in my hands.
Lucy said hers was a snake but mine, mine was a worm.
The lady talked about long ones and short ones, and medium sized ones,
and Sarah rolled her dough so long it went right over the edge of the table.
(And nobody said “what are you going to make – a cake would be nice”)

Yes, but then what did you do?
I played on the climbing frame
and do you know
I can jump off the very top step.

Yes, but did you do anything today?
Sarah and me went to the paint table.
It was lovely, all gooey and slippery on our hands.
We made lots of patterns with our fingers and elbows.
Sarah had yellow paint and I had red
and Mummy, do you know what,
if you mix red paint and yellow paint together it goes ORANGE!
(And nobody said “what a mess you’ve made”).

Yes, but what else have you done?
At milk time a big boy pushed me over
and I bumped my head.
The lady picked me up and loved me better,
and the boy said “sorry”.

And then did you do anything?
The lady sang a new song
and I can remember it,
it was about our fingers, thumbs and toes.

But, did you do anything today?
I made lovely traily patterns in the sand,
and then Sarah and me had a race to see
who could put the sand in the sand-wheel quickest.

So, what did you do at Nursery today?
We sang ‘Happy Birthday’ to Nicholas
and then the lady read us a story.

But, did you do anything today?
Yes, when the lady said “it’s time to tidy up”
I quickly painted you a picture
'cos I knew you’d say ………………..

‘What did you do at nursery today?”

I think you must have too much time on your hands to worry about something SO minor !!!

I think you must have too much time on your hands to worry about something SO minor

The OP isn't worrying about it, she noticed it as would anyone with a vague clue about child development.

I wish I had the time to worry about such things. There are far more important things to worry about but I agree with those who say don't make a big thing out of it. Have you got any older children who have started school yet? There will be lots and lots of other things to worry about further down the line. Great that you care this much but my advice is to not sweat the small stuff or by the time it comes to the bigger stuff, you won't be taken very seriously.....

Most preschool and KS1&2 offered a range of activities. Some like you describe where the child is given guidance, and usually an opportunity to talk about the picture. And free art time. If unsure voice your concerns to your childcare provider. And/or provide few creative projects at home. Sounds like you are describing good practice.

The OP ISN'T worrying about it

I wish I had the time to worry about such things

That's such a wanky thing to say, it implies you are far too superior to possibly bother with such trivial nonsense as you are soooooo busy but not too busy to post on MN and tell everyone how busy you are

Cancel the cheque!