Boys school football team should have boys in??

[plastique]

So son has come home from school, disappointed not to get in the yr 8 school football team. Ok fair enough, there must be better players than him.... Well that's life move on etc!!! Oh no that's not the case. Two girls are in the boys football team.. Fair enough too if boys are allowed in girls football team... But oh no girls only... Trying to teach equality etc but this goes against everything!! Thoughts please....

I agree that it is likely there wasn't enough take up amongst the girls to create two teams. OP are you sure that the girls team is still running?

This happened with DD at school. They tried to create a girls team but there wasn't enough interest. Even for girls only competitions. As DD already played with a mixed team in the local league and was good enough to play at the level the better boys were, they made the team that played in the boys competitions mixed. No doubt there were boys who missed out on a place in the team as she was better than them. But a mixed team chosen on merit is fair.

As a former member of a girls school football team i can see exactly why the school have let 2 girls in the "boys" team. We were in year 8 too, and we had a boys team and a girls team. While the boys team competed in a wide area against dozens of other school teams, we only got to "compete" with the other 2 local schools (one of which had 2 girls teams) so our pathetic "league" was made up of just 4 teams. Also unlike with boys teams, we weren't allowed to play a specific positon but were made to rotate so "everyone gets a go at everything". It just is not taken seriously like boys football, which to those of us that had played our entire lives and were serious at wanting to play competitively, was really demeaning. The majority of the girls on the team, quite frankly, were absolutely rubbish. Scared of the ball coming at them, turning their back to it, squealing, going to kick it and completely missing, and thats NOT the ones in goal getting shots taken at them! To the three of us that wanted to play seriously, it was an absolute JOKE. There was just enough of us to make a team, no spares, so everyone who wanted in, was in, and that wasn't a good thing. Most practices we had only half the team there. Inevitably, the girls team was completely cut after just one tournament. The majority of the team didn't care as they weren't serious about it, but the three of us that were, were devastated, and frustrated and felt very discriminated against that we weren't allowed to try out for the boys team. I probably wouldn't have got in, but the other 2 absolutely would have, if only they were allowed to try.
The fact is, some girls are good enough, and better than some boys, and in your sons case, they were better than him and good on your school for not discriminating based on gender. Would you be complaining if he wasn't in the team but it was an all boys team? The girls team, is usually really poor in terms of talent and effort, and is more for show than actual competing, just so everyone can feel included.
If i was embarrassed to be stuck in a "girls" team given the sorry state of talent, and effort, how bad do you think it would be for a boy who took the game seriously to be stuck there instead of making the boys team when even some girls did?

turning their back to it

At least they weren't trying to grab it with their hands.

Yes, most teams my DS plays against (and his own) have one, pushing it to 3, at best. Those are the girls who like to play football and are good at it.

Misskate...the girls team won the county cup last year.... They are an amazing team

They are an amazing team

For a girls team, probably.

If two of them can hold their own within the boys team, all the better for them.

If your son is that keen, are there any clubs he can join?

Were the girls who are now in the boys team in the team that won the cup? Just wondering whether they'd been moved "up" in order to develop their game as they were really strong players?

Open team and girls team? Have we really come to a point where it is acceptable to discriminate against males on the basis of gender? Either have open teams or single gender teams (or even one of all three), but if you are going to have a girls team then there should be a boys team.

Discrimination against women on the basis of gender may well still be an issue, but discrimination against men for the same reason is just as wrong. Two wrongs do not make a right!

the girls team won the county cup last year.... They are an amazing team

For a girls team , they probably are. However, if they played against the team that won the mixed (or boys?) county cup, they'd probably get rings run round them.

There are two girls at our local junior cricket club who play for the U11 county girls. But they only occasionally get picked for the club u11 side, because they just aren't quite good enough. There needs to be so much more encouragement for girls sport, from a very early age, to increase the number of girls playing, and therefore increase the number of talented girl players. Including them in a 'boys' team is a good start, as well as having girls teams.

Have we really come to a point where it is acceptable to discriminate against males on the basis of gender?

It's not really discrimination in the usual sense though, is it? It's more about ensuring equal opportunity for girls and boys to play at a higher level. I can see how it may feel that boys are then discriminated against because they can't play in the girls team, but the problem then arises of it being taken over by boys, and girls once again being pushed out. If we are genuinely going to redress the balance of sexism in sport, we need to start somewhere, and grassroots level is where it needs to start.

If I saw a girl playing against me at that age I'd slide tackle her into next week you play with the boys expect to be tackled like a boy

1sttimedaddy, that would not happen. As you well know, there is nobody as respectful of women and girls as a 12 year old boy. If tackled himself by the girl, he would warmly applaud the skill which she showed, with no thoughts of retaliation.

If we are genuinely going to redress the balance of sexism in sport...

Genuine question, what do you think are the barriers that prevent women from participating in (any) sport either at school or as an adult?

I will try and find a link to it but I remember reading an article in the Guardian a few years back that looked at the woeful uptake of sports by girls at school and the survey they carried out cited issues such as dislike of group showers/changing rooms, lack of hair dryers, not wanting to get sweaty etc, it was a fairly depressing read to be honest. Lack of opportunity or access to facilities and coaching featured way down the list of grievences.

It's not really discrimination in the usual sense though, is it?

I think it is; the girls have their own team but the boys don't, blatant preferential treatment of the girls.

If we are genuinely going to redress the balance of sexism in sport, we need to start somewhere, and grassroots level is where it needs to start.

I agree with this, there needs to be much more investment in women's sports at grassroots level. I don't agree that preferential treatment for females is the right way, if we are trying to teach that sexism is wrong then reversing the sexism is nonsensical.

Investment in terms of time, energy and encouragement (especially at school level) - not just money.

I remember that article, Pan, but I think it was mostly talking about girls in secondary education. Generally , I think that the change has to come about at a much earlier age, and there needs to be a far greater change in the perception of what it means to be a girl or a boy. There is still a general feeling in this country that girls do ballet, boys do sports. There is definitely not enough encouragement at an early age to get girls into sports ( or boys into dance, for that matter).

If girls started football at the same age as boys, because it was 'expected' of them, and there were the same numbers of each entering the sport at an early age, then girls football would be so much better in a few years time.

There is also the influence of the media/public interest in mens sports vs womens sports. Generally, mens sports are much more in the public eye, and of course, much more money is involved. But yet, the best game of football I ever went to watch was a womens match, it was amazing. But you never see that on the television. It's reinforcing the message to children, and also to adults, that mens sport is more important that womens.

Of course, it works both ways. It's interesting that my DD goes to a girls school, where lessons include traditional 'boy' subjects such as football and cricket as well as dance, but the boys school my DSs go to don't do dance or netball, for example.

Were the girls who are now in the boys team in the team that won the cup? Just wondering whether they'd been moved "up" in order to develop their game as they were really strong players?

Tricky one really. There's lots of discrimination against women in sport still. Take cycling. In time trials theres usually a decent prize money for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd (open) and a significantly smaller token sum for the 'first lady'. Realistically, even the best women are not as fast as the decent amateur man.

As a woman I can come second and get nothing whereas a man can come 3rd and get more than the first woman.

In team comps it's even worse. 1st 2nd and 3rd teams get a big prize, there's a small prize for 1st team with a lady, and no prize at all for all female teams.

As there are more male entrants equal prizes wouldn't be fair either, but at least something for the top 3 positions should be given.

As a woman you don't even feel like entering because you know you'll come near last because most entering are men. At least if prizes were awarded there'd be a recognition that you weren't rubbish, just female.

Sorry managed to post that twice - stupid phone!

DD is nearly 15 and has been playing in a mixed team since she was 9, simply because there aren't the numbers to have a separate girls' team. All was fine until she had a manager who also believed girls did not belong in a boys team and refused to play her, except for 5 minutes as sub. The fact she had no other option if she wanted to play was lost on him and ultimately the league when I complained. I was the manager of a junior team for a time and the sexism we encountered was disgusting, including threats of sexual assault. It was all dismissed by the powers that be as 'banter'.

And before anyone suggests she maybe wasn't as good as the boys - she was picked to play for her county three years ago, spending last year playing in an age group above her own. She is now playing for one of the top local League teams who have a fantastic male and female set up, even though we have to travel 80 minutes for training.

As for this situation OP - why not ask if your son can play in the girls team as he doesnt have a place in the boys?

isttimedaddy what a disgusting comment. As a football referee to be encouraging that response is nothing short of disgraceful. And trust me, the 3 girls who were in my mixed team would simply have run it off, rugby is their first game around here. Fair tackles are all fine and it should be equal for both sexes but to word it as you have suggests an element of singling out the girl

At my local football club there are 45 male teams and 11 female. And the situation is a MissKatie says - a lot (most even) of the girls really aren't very good. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, playing sport at any level is A Good Thing. But it does mean that the girls who are keen aren't tested. Purely on a numbers level, when you have 4 times as many boys playing, there are going to be more at a higher level. So I'm all for girls playing in 'boys' teams.

I think some people are missing the point others are trying to make when they are saying that this system is unfairly discriminating against boys and that this simply reverses sexism. It doesn't. I don't personally experience sexism particularly in my life - I'm paid equally and transparently to male counterparts, my husband contributes equally to domestic work and parenting, I am rarely cat called in the street - but I am in no way stupid or arrogant enough to announce that therefore women have achieved equality and sexism is over. A quick read of this forum, in particular Relationships, is proof enough that sexism is alive and well in 2016 and it is adversely affecting a great number of women. Denying that and accusing women of trying to get a better deal than men is extremely damaging. Equality does not mean that everyone gets exactly the same treatment. The issue of girls in sport is clearly complex and far-reaching. There are clearly very good reasons for having an open team and a girls-only team. It really does not disadvantage boys.

There are clearly very good reasons for having an open team and a girls-only team. It really does not disadvantage boys.

Yes.
Two girls, who probably are very good, and better than most boys in the boys team, are hardly disadvantaging boys.
It would be if there were two mixed teams and there had to be the same number of boys and girls in each, meaning that most girls would probably be not as good as some boys left out.

Which is not the case of the OP. The best players will have been chosen.
Then the girls team gets to play a separate championship, of girls teams, which is very likely not even remotely as competitive as the main championship. This separate championship is to encourage more girls to participate in the sport.

But, again, if there is such a great number of boys wanting to play football, then why not open to a B team?

BTW, OP, it's likely that even without the girls there, that your boy might not have been chosen for the main team.

I wonder about other sports in the school? Are there boy and girl teams? Mixed teams? How many boys vs girls?

By having a girls only team and a mixed team, the school is reducing opportunities for boys. Not the very best boys, the ones that will always be picked for teams, but the boys who aren't quite at that level. I don't see how this can be considered fair.

Girls do slightly better than boys at A-Levels, does that mean that some of their teaching time should be given over to boys to even the playing field? Of course it doesn't.

Girls do slightly better than boys at A-Levels, does that mean that some of their teaching time should be given over to boys to even the playing field?

That's not comparable because all pupils are taught, whereas the football teams don't accept everyone.

But, as proposed, the best solution for the school is not to exclude girls from the main team, but to have a secondary team for boys too.

Girls do slightly better at A levels ... actually, this happens all the time in education! Resources are frequently diverted towards groups or individuals who are not performing well.

Ok - I'm coming at this from my "professional" stance which is provision or rugby in a local prep school.

I think with regards to the OP the critical point is what this team is for? Is it the team for the whole year? Is it a team for a specific mixed match?

At the school I am involved with they are a very small school with a high percentage of boys than girls. There aren't sufficient girls to create full teams so we ensure that whilst we have a "boys team" we also take part in mixed tournaments to ensure the girls that want to get chance. (To balance this out we also take part in mixed netball and hockey tournaments to ensure the boys that want to do these sports take part). We do also run mixed rugby sessions but sadly the three girls who took part have either left or have clashes with other commitments.

The issue with the provision of sport and equality in the provision of sport is that you can't assume that there is the opportunities. To ensure good quality matches that improve ability you need opposition and a lot of schools STILL don't have girls football teams, boys netball teams, boys hockey tems, girls rugby teams.

I did rugby for my A-Level PE course and had to go and train with the boy's school because there wasn't provision at my school (although very fair play to my school who facilitated it).

The fact is there is still a barrier for people playing sports which are traditionally seen as the opposite gender sports and until as a whole those barriers are removed, sports provision in schools can only go so far.