To think most of the people bemoaning grammar schools are hypocrites

[pleasemothermay1]

That's just it's really I don't mind people who have the courage of there conviction but I have no trux with champagne socialists

Like jc or Diane Abbott or Tristan hunt

Who's children all went or will be going to grammar or private

Even bloody James o Brian moaning about grammars when he rountinly says he wouldn't rule out private for his girls 😕

I agree op but this made me laugh my dh was sung to

I can imagine my dc faces when I say " Now darlings tis 6pm and mummy is going to sing to you, then daddy will also sing to you" as I stand in front of them with music stand and launch into some madrigals!!!!!

Actually high 'Suicide' rates could be to do with something as simple as not seeing the 'Sun ' and little daylight for 3 months i.e Finland/Norway! That has got to be major sociological influence in high 'Suicide' rates.

That's where you are mistaken op Finland had a class system much like the UK with nobility, merchant middle class, working class and rural poor. They made a concentrated effort over the last century to eliminate that rigid class system by education and a focus on equality.

And sandyholme Finland has contributed a ridiculous amount to the world taking into account its small size, from text messaging to medical innovation to the solar sail in space travel. Much more innovative per capita than the UK for instance.

goodbyestranger Wed 14-Sep-16 11:37:59 I don't know who you're referring to Mum,

No I wasn't referring to you :-)

Finland was rapidly industrialized after the Second World War, achieving GDP per capita levels equal to that of Japan or the UK in the beginning of the 1970s. Initially, most development was based on two broad groups of export-led industries, the "metal industry" (metalliteollisuus) and "forest industry" (metsäteollisuus). The "metal industry" includes shipbuilding, metalworking, the car industry, engineered products such as motors and electronics, and production of metals (steel, copper and chromium). The world's biggest cruise ships are built in Finnish shipyards. The "forest industry" (metsäteollisuus) includes forestry, timber, pulp and paper, and is a logical development based on Finland's extensive forest resources (77% of the area is covered by forest, most of it in renewable use). In the pulp and paper industry, many of the largest companies are based in Finland (Ahlstrom, M-real, and UPM). However, the Finnish economy has diversified, with expansion into fields such as electronics (e.g. Nokia), metrology (Vaisala), transport fuels (Neste), chemicals (Kemira), engineering consulting (Pöyry), and information technology (e.g. Rovio, known for Angry Birds), and is no longer dominated by the two sectors of metal and forest industry. Likewise, the structure has changed, with the service sector growing, with manufacturing reducing in importance; agriculture is only a minor part. Despite this, production for export is still more prominent than in Western Europe, thus making Finland more vulnerable to global economic trends.

In an Economist Intelligence Unit report released in September 2011, Finland clinched the second place after the United States on Benchmarking IT Industry Competitiveness 2011 which scored on 6 key indicators: overall business environment, technology infrastructure, human capital, legal framework, public support for industry development, and research and development landscape.[112.

Fair Enough

It is a small country though spread over a relatively large area !

The small population spread over a large area makes it even more difficult to provide equal education but they did pretty well.

Humid singing with and two small children is hugely useful in developing their musicality.

All three of my kids are great singers and very musical. My middle ds is musically gifted.

Playing music to children (or singing to and with them) is as important as number play or any other developmental activities which people think are good for little children. :-)

Why is the idea of singing to and with children so funny?

Minifingerz - re your father's successful career, do you think also today it is much harder to go up through the ranks, eg start maybe as a secretary and through talent and hard work end up a director, as unless someone has certain exam qualifications from school or a degree, then they cannot move forwards or upwards?

poster Natsku Wed 14-Sep-16 12:10:51
That's where you are mistaken op Finland had a class system much like the UK with nobility, merchant middle class, working class and rural poor. They made a concentrated effort over the last century to eliminate that rigid class system by education and a focus on equality.
sorey didn't realise Finland had a large Asian population with a caste system or a sizeable black population were rasiscm and the associated issues or religion they also don't have a sizeable amount of there working class who don't actually work

It's a Diffrent cultural context Finland is by and large a mono clutre

In some areas in the uk it's not just about class it's about race ,caste and even religion in northen irland being working class a prostant and being working class and catholic are very Diffrent with Catholics often being more affluent in all classes

poster BertrandRussell Wed 14-Sep-16 12:54:39

its very odd

One in the first questions I was asked when dd stared nursey was did she no any nursey rhymes and the fact people think it odd to sing

Three blind mince

Or miss Polly had a dolly to a child proves my point tbh

Please. That's odd that Catholics in Northern Ireland are perhaps more affluent than Protestants ( though i thought Bangor which is 80% protestant is the wealthiest area in Northern Ireland) had little representation in Government or in the higher society of Ulster life.

And singing to a child or playing them music costs nothing

Very odd

poster sandyholme W

its diffcult as most of the upper and middle class areas tend to be mixed
Flag flying banned Ect

But I think it steams back from Catholics not being able to find work so starting there owns business

Dapple

Yes, much harder.

You need a degree to get any sort of white collar job in the creative or media industries these days I reckon.

In fact i read somewhere that the 'Catholic' High School in Bangor Northern Ireland St Columbanus College has as many Protestant pupils as Catholic ones ! This is quite extraordinary for Northern Ireland .

However, it could have something to do with the low number of Catholic children in Bangor , but i suspect because of the relative 'affluence' of Bangor the tribal differences have tended to disappear.

Even in the schools with 50% immigrant children they are doing well op and two official languages plus two official minority languages are a high level of diversity

In creative or media you need more than a degree, significant internships are very common. I know two girls in their 20's with excellent degrees who have only just got a full time paying job having spent a year interning in the creative departments of different advertising firms. They've had work used by the companies in national campaigns too!

"sorey didn't realise Finland had a large Asian population with a caste system or a sizeable black population were rasiscm and the associated issues or religion they also don't have a sizeable amount of there working class who don't actually work"

And the award for the Most Daily Mail Comment of the Day goes to....

haybott how do your colleagues square that with sending their DC to independent selectives, as so many do? (alongside their peers elsewhere).

Very few of them do. Indeed few could afford to send to private schools - the typical incomes aren't high enough unless you are rather senior and you have a dual career family. Some of my colleagues are very much against private schools as well as selective schools and would never consider sending their children there.

Those that do send to selective private schools (like me) tend to have rather less entrenched views - as I have said on other threads, I am on the fence about grammars rather than deeply opposed to them.

I don't think grammars will make a significant difference to state education one way or another in most parts of the country. There really isn't much difference between the education offered to top sets in our local comprehensive and that offered in the grammars. I very much doubt that the new grammars are going to offer much more than upper set children already get in most cases. If grammars become widespread I do think the tutoring culture that is prevalent in current grammar areas will also spread - but while this has many downsides it will also have the upside of lifting performance on entry to secondary school. (I think preparing for secondary school tests has been one of the factors in improving London's educational performance.)

Are you sure very few do?

Not sure haybot can be expected to answer for her colleagues! I

I think the increased funding for London schools was the major factor in improving London's performance, there aren't many grammars in London so I don't see how preparing for tests would improve overall performance.

Are you sure very few do?

Yes, I know where my departmental and other colleagues send their children to school. Less than 10% of my colleagues are currently sending their children to private schools.

In practice, as I said above, salaries are also too low in general. A non-professorial academic doesn't get more than ~60k per year (range 35k-65k); a professor is usually paid in the range of 70-90k, a head of department/dean would be on 100k or so, with a small number of senior professors having higher salaries than this. You need to be both a dual career family and a senior academic to afford private schools.

BTW academics in some fields (medicine, economics) are paid considerably more. It might be more common for them to send their kids to private schools although most of the ones I know don't do so.