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Original poster

To think most of the people bemoaning grammar schools are hypocrites

383 replies

pleasemothermay1 · 12/09/2016 16:40

That's just it's really I don't mind people who have the courage of there conviction but I have no trux with champagne socialists

Like jc or Diane Abbott or Tristan hunt

Who's children all went or will be going to grammar or private

Even bloody James o Brian moaning about grammars when he rountinly says he wouldn't rule out private for his girls 😕

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 13/09/2016 20:42

goodbye I do know of and trust Rob Coe and he says his group are looking into why certain groups don't perform well on the test. He has not denied the findings, rather confirmed there's an issue with the test.

BertrandRussell · 13/09/2016 21:13

"do know what I've seen of the tests first hand, what I know of CEM and the research and what I see happening at our own school"

That's interesting. Has the % of FSM children increased at your school since the introduction of CEM? How much by?

BertrandRussell · 13/09/2016 21:18

"disproportionate effort being spent in many schools on getting pupils over the GCSE D/C borderline rather than supporting the most able to secure the top A/A* grades"

Personally, I think that resources should be very properly allocated that way. Lots of doors are closed to kids who don't have Cs. Off hand, I can't think of any, except medicine at a top university closed by the difference between A and A. And a 16 year old on target for medicine at Cambridge shouldn't need spoonfeeding from school to get the As.

TheFallenMadonna · 13/09/2016 21:49

The C/D borderline is no longer the thing. In fact, this year, schools will be better off pushing for the As and A* grades because in the ridiculous hybrid GCSE situation we are in, boosting from a B to an A is worth more to the school than boosting a grade from a D to C. And far more than boosting an F to an E. Even after this year, the new accountability measures are about progress, not Cs.

TheFallenMadonna · 13/09/2016 21:51

Although I do agree with BertrandRussell about the huge importance of Cs for students and their progression.

goodbyestranger · 13/09/2016 21:54

No, he's confirmed that CEM will be responsive to all findings, not that the test has backfired. Not sure what 'knowing of' someone adds to the picture!

Yes Bert. Not sure of exact percentages. But our school has an award for that sort of thing so no doubt you'd dismiss our data anyhow - doesn't suit your books.

BertrandRussell · 13/09/2016 21:59

If it works, it works.

Little puzzled that you aren't sure of the %increase in FSM admissions- it's the sort of thing that a school would be rightly proud of. And that somebody as interested in the process as you should have at your fingertips.

noblegiraffe · 13/09/2016 22:03

No, he's confirmed that CEM will be responsive to all findings, not that the test has backfired. Not sure what 'knowing of' someone adds to the picture!

They were aiming for a fair test that didn't give advantage to the already advantaged. They gave it their best shot, and came out with a test that is racist. Of course they're going to be responsive to all findings, their aim is still to make a fair test, but clearly they haven't managed it (yet) so grammar school advocates shouldn't be pointing to it as a solution.

Of course knowing of Rob Coe is useful. He spoke at a conference I was at last weekend for example. I know that he's not just some entrepreneur trying to wangle a lucrative assessment deal. He's genuinely interested in the problem and so I believe what he is trying to achieve is an actual fair test and not something that they can fob people off with for cash.

MaQueen · 13/09/2016 22:11

From my observations the people most vociferously against grammar schools belong to one of the following groups...

A) They don't live in a grammar area, and they're mad as Hell that other parents have this option.

B) They live in a grammar area, hoped their DC would pass the 11+, and when they didn't, they were mad as Hell about it.

C) They live in a grammar area, but know their DC isn't ever going to pass the 11+, and they're mad as Hell about it.

I think that about covers it? Everything else is just smoke and mirrors and desperate lunging for the moral high ground.

goodbyestranger · 13/09/2016 22:13

I just mean that knowing someone and his work properly is not the same as 'knowing of' someone. I'm glad you now concede the fact that there is sincerity on the part of CEM and Coe, even if he's quoted in the Guardian as not being a devotee of grammars, since as I pointed out the two don't need to be linked. I think there's no doubt whatsoever that the CEM tests are a move strongly in the right direction, and that a single pressure group with a massive axe to grind shouldn't disrupt the direction that the grammars are moving in. As Coe says, the existing ones are here to stay so at the very least one might as well work to make those accessible.

Bert, statistics aren't out for this year's intake. Do you really expect them to be published on MN?

noblegiraffe · 13/09/2016 22:15

You weren't at the ResearchEd conference last weekend then, MaQueen. If you wanted a group of people vociferously against grammar schools, then there was a room full of education professionals almost unanimously opposed, and angrily so.
You seem to be entirely focused on parents. There are other interested groups.

noblegiraffe · 13/09/2016 22:17

I'm glad you now concede the fact that there is sincerity on the part of CEM and Coe

Eh? I never said there wasn't. Confused I am absolutely sure they are totally and sincerely trying to polish this particular turd, but I'm also pretty sure they're aware that it's a turd.

TheFallenMadonna · 13/09/2016 22:19

I am so sad that some people can't understand that some people not only have strongly held principles, but actually act on them. My parents were pretty sure I would pass, and while I know I might not have, it is absolutely not why I didn't take the 11plus. Mind you, they are a rarity I think, my parents.

goodbyestranger · 13/09/2016 22:20

But a different room of education professionals at a different meeting would be in favour noble.

MaQueen · 13/09/2016 22:21

Your parents were akin to Rocking Horse Shit Fallen - and I mean that as a complement.

goodbyestranger · 13/09/2016 22:22

People who oppose grammars do not have a monopoly of principle Madonna.

noblegiraffe · 13/09/2016 22:24

Oh, and I don't live in a grammar area but my friend does and has a DC in primary. I have been thanking my lucky stars that I don't have to go through the absolute bollocks that she is as a parent. She says that the place is wall to wall adverts for 11+ tutors, with constant reminders that your child might not make it if you don't fork out, and what a bad parent that would make you. So much money and heartache wasted on an outdated and broken system. She would much rather not live in a grammar area at all.

TheFallenMadonna · 13/09/2016 22:25

No, and I didn'the suggest otherwise. It was a reply to MaQueen's post, which was about anti rather than pro motivation.

SideEye · 13/09/2016 22:27

OP - in answer to your question, it's because parents want the best education for their child, and if they can afford private or have a grammar, they tend to opt for that if they can.

It takes a pretty strong person to be able to afford an independent school, and/or have a child with the ability to pass the grammar school test (and live near enough to access it) but to reject that for the nearest secondary school, no matter what the quality of it, because they believe that kids should all go to their nearest school. I too have a lot of respect for them.

smallfox2002 · 13/09/2016 22:28

Nope not a hypocrite, they are proved not to be a catalyst for social mobility, repeatedly in studies going back nearly 50 years. They overwhelmingly benefit the middle classes.

In response to MaQueen, people for grammar schools tend to be the ones that want the status quo maintained, not to increase equality of opportunity based on actual ability.

Sharp elbowed people who had privileges themselves, or with a strong case of survivor bias.

Oh and by the evidence of debates on here, not very well educated despite their airs and graces.

noblegiraffe · 13/09/2016 22:30

But a different room of education professionals at a different meeting would be in favour noble.

Ok, find me the education professionals in favour of it so I can follow them on Twitter. The DfE dont' want it, the education secretary doesn't want it, the head of Ofsted doesn't want it, the schools minister doesn't want it, Gove doesn't want it, his former advisor definitely doesn't want it, Nicky Morgan doesn't want it, the people at TES don't want it, neither do the people at Education Datalab. Most teachers surveyed don't want it. The CEM guy trying to devise the fair 11+ doesn't want it.

The only education people I can think of in favour are some heads of grammars who want to expand, and one maths guy who says he isn't fussed.

smallfox2002 · 13/09/2016 22:33

Oh and for all the gushing about stretching the most able, under represented at Oxbridge. According to the Sutton Trust no less.

smallfox2002 · 13/09/2016 22:35

Oh come on Noble, people who vote tory don't listen to experts!

goodbyestranger · 13/09/2016 22:38

I would like to see an increase equality of opportunity based on ability smallfox and am relatively well educated although I did grow up with a degree of privilege admittedly, thanks to my father making the best of the educational opportunities afforded him in this country after he arrived as a penniless refugee.

What a silly post.

noblegiraffe · 13/09/2016 22:38

people who vote tory don't listen to experts!

That is a worry here, that it's not just the people who vote Tory, but the people running the country. It is certainly a cause for concern that this policy has been announced despite the antipathy of the people supposedly in charge of education.