Large Families

[Czerny88]

I'm trying to understand the psychology behind people having large families (by which I mean anything over three children, I guess). NB I'm thinking about people in the 21st century, in the West, with access to contraception and low infant mortality, who don't belong to a culture where it is particularly encouraged to have a large number of children, such as Judaism. And obviously there are circumstances such as multiple births which don't apply.

My visceral feeling is that it is often wrong on many levels. In attempting to enunciate why, I would say people should not have more children than they can afford, than they have time to care for, than can fit comfortably in their living accommodation.

And even in the case where the parents are very wealthy, have a huge house and extra support such as a nanny, there is still the hugely important issue of over-population. It feels like we are at capacity already, without room to increase the population by the amount would result by every couple having even three children.

I'm trying not to be too goady or right-wing, and I have personal reasons for the way I feel (I am involuntarily childless) so please don't be too harsh, but it's something I struggle with ideologically as well as emotionally.

So... AIBU to think that people should be more responsible about how many children they produce and not act solely on their own desires regardless of the potential effects on others? Or is that an unrealistic, draconian expectation?

Pretty sure it's actually an animalistic urge that some people (aka me) find hard to suppress. Mammals generally have a heavy focus on "breeding" and wanting to reproduce to populate the strength of the species and we are mammals at the end of the day. Sometimes logic just doesn't overcome emotion, desire or genetic wiring.

well, OP, I guess my children are ok then, as between me and the 2 fathers that's one kid each, just replacing ourselves, right?
which leaves my brother and his wife who can't have kids - so I can have another 2 to replace them, right?

Oh, and because of personal issues we only claimed family allowance for one of them.
Is that ok by you now? Do you now approve of my family?

what an incredibly judgemental post!

Big hug OP :(

I don't have any children as I am infertile

And yet you question how people have large families?!

Pisssssedorf exactly. The child benefit cap is vile.

As though a third born will have less to offer their country and community by dent of their birth order.

It is disgusting.

Plenty of people on here had their parents' collecting non-means tested child benefit. How dare they question a third born child's entitlement to a basic standard of living.

How dare they question a third born child's entitlement to a basic standard of living. hmm

That's their parents' responsibility.

It's double standards ... Either pull it completely Or don't, but it's cheeky to make it conditional given that the criterial is so flaky.

Haven't RTFT. But 2 things in response to this sentence in your OP -

"It feels like we are at capacity already, without room to increase the population by the amount would result by every couple having even three children."

1. The overpopulation thing. I don't think projections are that the global population (GP) will continue at the rate it currently is. As education increases, birth rates go down, so GP will plateau then level off

1. The fact that SOME people choose to have more than 3 children does not mean that everyone will ("every couple having even three children").

In other words, some people make the choice to have lots of kids knowing that they will have an above average sized family, and that other people are having smaller families or no children at all. This balances things out a bit. Not saying it's right or wrong, just saying it's an odd conclusion to reach that if some people have large families it means everyone else will, too.

Personally I am not that keen on people having more than 3 kids either, but it's for environmental reasons not overpopulation. There is a difference.

I also object to the "we can afford it, why wouldn't we??!!!1!!" responses on here, because they ignore the environmental question. I am tempted here to make an "I could afford to buy XXX and set it on fire for no reason, but I don't, because it's bad for the environment" but I won't, because then I'll get "how can you compare XXX to having a child"

"I have 4 DDs. All very much loved, adored and so wanted. We can afford all of them perfectly well, thank you."

This sort of comment is so weird (I won't even go into Hobbitmum's, uh, unseemly rant as it's so awful but with the same gist). Sniffy as hell, too.

You can clearly afford it. So why so defensive? To the point of ignoring the crux of the OP's argument.

Nobody is accusing anybody else of being poor. OK?

I only have two, both boys: I'd have loved a third (a girl?) but OH was against it - he reckoned we'd got our hands full as it was, and knowing my luck, it'd have been another boy anyway....
I do, however, have a lovely friend who has just had number 7. There is 20 years between the eldest and the youngest (but still the same husband) and in the middle she has twins - which was a difficult pregnancy. Her husband works away quite a lot, but I must say that she does an absolutely superb job: I am completely in awe of her zen attitude and organisational abilities and her children are all absolutely delightful. They have a house in which every child has their own bedroom - and her husband has the kind of job which keeps them all not just clothed and fed but in reasonable comfort.
I certainly couldn't do it, but she has a talent for it and is producing responsible members of society who will look after the rest of us in our dotage, so "go girl, you're amazing" is my attitude to her.
However, I also believe that you should cut you coat according to your cloth, so if you don't have the money to support more children without state benefits, or you find yourself "frazzled and exhausted" by your children then you should stop procreating at that point.

I kind of accept tax credit changes as it only applies to future children of existing claimants. However as a non claimant at the moment my 3rd child would be excluded. Obviously I sincerely hope I never have to claim but shit happens.

Once again, spot on Arseicle

"I still can't empathise with why anyone would want more than a couple of kids, but that is not a value judgment. I wanted to know if other people felt like this without coming from a position of childlessness.

I probably shouldn't have used the word "wrong" (although I did try to say that that was just how it felt to me, and did qualify it), but I still feel that people should consider the ramifications of having many children"

The latter italics most certainly are a value judgement.

Wrt 'wrong' - you used the word you meant to use, OP.

...I still feel that people should consider the ramifications of having many children

Totally agree with op. There is no rationale for having more than 2 children per family. Too many people on the planet as it is.

This thread is full of generalisations. I have a big family because I enjoy having a big family, and growing up I loved being part of a bit family. My rationale? That it was an enjoyable lifestyle for me, and therefore felt to me like the best thing for my kids. I would have hated to be an only child or only one of two or three, and I have a niece who despises being an only child - she feels lots of attention and subsequent pressure on her, and feels she struggles to get away with anything and has no one to talk to at home - so has to come around to our house to spend time with my DCs/DSCs.

Regarding the ecological impact of many children - my whole family are either vegan or vegetarian, we donate a large portion of our money to charities, we have one car that gets used very little unless on long journeys as we are regular users of buses/trains/bicycles. I doubt our carbon footprint as a family is any worse than someone who isn't a vegetarian and drives everywhere. In fact, I imagine it's considerably lighter.

I do not regret my big family. And as our area is actually relatively under populated, and my DCs/DSCs are all hard workers - three out of the four that are old enough with part time jobs and keeping up with school/hobbies - which I believe means what they put into the world will be equal to what they take out. More hard workers are needed in the England around me, and I believe my children are happy to work hard and get on with awful jobs thanks to being part of a big family. I'm sure that could be achieved in a small family, but to me raising a big family is more rewarding. Which is why I have a big family.

FFS did anyone read that article I posted above?

"Too many people on the planet as it is" is a fucking stupid thing to say! The number of people having children in the UK is barely a scratch on the surface of that number. If we stopped having kids here it would make no difference at all to the planet as a whole

However, we have an aging population which, in less than ten years, will have less than three working people per retired person to fund all there needs. We are having less kids and living longer, I would love to know who you think is going to care for you in your dotage given that there will simply not being enough people to work in the caring services. Financial assistance will drop and drop as there will not be enough tax payers to cover the cost. So dont expect to get a winter fuel payment or pension credit if you dont have enough private provison.

But I am sure you will be comforted, while sitting in your own mess and not being fed, by the fact that you didnt contribute to over population

mathanxiety Do you think you could give it a rest now? You must have posted about a dozen times now. Anyone would think you were enjoying feeling deeply offended and outraged. Anyway, I'm certainly not going to apologise for thinking that people should give due consideration to actually creating a new human being.

Wallis I don't really understand your point. I know how people have big families. What this knowledge has to do with my reproductive system on a practical level I'm not entirely sure. Or are you implying that I would have a large family if I could?

there/their/they're...whatever its been a long day!

But Bogeyface - had I been given a choice I would have stopped at 3 children, which would give the seven children between DH and I an adult:child ratio of 6:7 as one of mine is adopted.

(As it was, I was forced to have two more. So condemn me - a 2:3 ratio.)

And anyway, the nine kids coming from our house will contribute a heck of a lot more than some coming from a one/two child house because of their willingness to work hard, muck in, and take on the less desirable jobs.

So maybe they will be in the caring service, or something equally useful and worthy. Then is it acceptable for me to have contributed to overpopulation?

I think that you would get away with it under exceptional circumstances (did you have triplets?!), but the rest of us are considered to be ignorant planet destroying arseholes.

What amazes me is people ignoring the facts! Today, right now, an elderly person is sitting in their own urine or thirsty or hungry simply because there are not enough nurses and carers to look after them. How is that going to get any better with a falling birth rate and people routinely living into their 90's?

I don't think Op is BU for asking the questions, although she did word them very insensitively. I do have to say that referring to women as "breeders" is horribly mysogynistic and has no place on mumsnet; a forum that is mainly frequented by mothers. (I'm not passing any judgement on those who aren't female or parents btw.)

Actually just worked out my ratio and it is something like 1.2 kids per adult within our (complicated) family situation, so well within the "3 kids max per couple" allowance!

I'm horrified! I have 6 ..... Yes 6! Not all planned and there are a set of twins but do you know what planned or not I wouldn't change them! It's hard work but it's amazing! My Dh works hard to support them, I stay home and look after them and I have a cleaner/ironing lady so that all my time goes on them (other than a general tidy and clean every day). I have the most amazing tiny humans, they are polite, kind, well behaved (on the whole .... Odd tantrums) they are very clever, bright, funny and loving. They are loved so so much and each child knows that and feels that because we constantly tell them and cuddle them and kiss them. We take it in turns putting them to bed so sometimes I do the twins and Dh does the middle two or vice versa and we both see the eldest to bed. They have stories, do homework, games nights, movie nights, days out. My children lack nothing!

I never intended on having 6 children but it happens. I wouldn't change it for anything! It's challenging st times but we stick at it, we change things to make it work, we never give up and we are the best parents we can be because that's what our beautiful children deserve. Screw anyone who thinks I'm a selfish cow, my children would disagree!

Op I definitely think that you not being able to have your own kids is colouring your view on large families.