To think vanity sizing is not just about people being fatter

[goddessoftheharvest]

Not really a taat- I've been thinking about this every time it pops up on MN

Any thread about weight, there's always comments about how vintage size 12s were tiny, and the equivalent today would be a size 16. This serves to point out how people are getting gradually fatter without really noticing.

Aibu to think that might be a bit simplistic?

People nowadays have access to almost unlimited junk, yes, but they also have access to affordable vitamins, milk etc

My great granny was tiny, but she was raised on bread and tea in a slum with 8 siblings, two of them had rickets, and she was riddled with arthritis from a relatively young age

My gran (her daughter) had a marginally better upbringing, but not much- less children, better housing, more to go round, but still a restricted diet, no heating etc. She is a little taller than my great granny, about 5'3. Much healthier too, as she has had access to better food and living conditions from young adulthood

My mum is 5'4, and although she's still small, she's not as noticeably tiny as the other women in the family. Was still very poor through her childhood at times

I have had access to better food and housing etc than any of them, and I am much bigger. I am 5'6 and even at 7 stone I couldn't fit into some of my mum's clothes because my shoulders are so broad

My dad's family were poor, but they were country people. They got fresh air, sunlight, grew their own vegetables, liberated the occasional pheasant. Anecdotally they all seemed a bit taller/longer lived than the town lot

Also I see loads of old photos where the women are short, but quite round/stocky. So not necessarily fat, but not sylph like size 8 either

So aibu to think it's probably down to better nutrition and lifestyle as well? I see similar with friends my age too. We are all taller than our older female relatives. One of my friends is a power lifter and she would never fit into vintage clothes, but she is super healthy and just pure muscle- that would have been unusual back then too

I am 6ft 2 and no amount of vanity sizing will ever solve my jeans problem (38 inside leg does not exist for women in most ranges). So I see your point.

www.redonline.co.uk/red-women/blogs/greatest-supermodels-of-the-90s-sali-hughes

From the linked article.

"The Supers represented a lethal cocktail of attributes: skin and bone structure to die for; implausibly huge, glossy hair; tall, Amazonian bodies that looked strong, healthy and slim, not emaciated and fragile. (Tatjana told me in a Red cover interview that she and the other Supers, at size 10, could never have fit into today’s catwalk samples."

For the first time in history we actually have a generation of children who, if current rates continue, their parents will out-live them. Not ALL children obviously, but a surprisingly high percentage. We have access to better diets yes, but many don't make the correct choices.

Do people really use an arbitrary number (i.e. Dress sizes) to assess whether they're overweight? Seems bizarre to me, but may explain why the UK has some of the highest obesity rates in the world.

I am amazed at how much taller woman have got over the generations. My great grandmother was only 4' 10",her daughter (my grandmother) was 5 foot. Her daughter (my mum) was 5' 2". I am 5' 5" and my daughter is 5' 9.5"! Her daughter is 10 next month and is already 4'11. So reckon she may well end up as tall as,if not taller than her mum.

as it was much more uncommon to see a size 8 in a store let alone a 6

That's true, 8s weren't common everywhere in the 90s.
I was 6st 12 in the late 90s (yep, underweight, I know) and wore a size 8. I still wear a size 8 now and I'm two and a bit stone heavier.
With sizes getting bigger, no wonder they had to invent a size 6, and then a 4, as what was an 8 then isn't an 8 now.

But I also think some of the smaller sizing is to do with the fact that teenagers shop in "adult" clothes ranges now and the sizing needs to reflect that.
When I was 11 or 12 I bought clothes from Tammy Girl and the teenage section at Dorothy Perkins. The teen section at Dorothy Perkins is long gone, as is Tammy Girl itself I think?
If girls that age are shopping in Topshop, River Island etc rather than buying children's clothes they'll obviously need to start doing tiny sizes. Supply and demand.

Ahhh Tammy girl...misses point of post. So many memories of that shop.

You are right kids hit 11 want to be in adult clothes!

Tammy Girl memories! I remember absolutely begging for a crop top.

I thought the average UK woman was 5ft4 or is that outdated now? I wonder how that compares to say, 60 years ago.

According to these 2010 figures from the Office for National Statistics, the average UK woman is 5ft 3ins and 11stone (BMI of 27).

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11534042

After following this thread I went to shops today. I measured myself in the morning- 37-27-42. My underbust is 29inches. In topshop I fitted perfectly into a size 12 blouse, a size 10 jumper, size 12 Jamie jeans and size 14 mom jeans. In next size 12 jeans were far too loose at the waist, but 10 were tight on my thighs. I fit into a size 10 jumper but a size 12 pencil dress was straining across my thighs. I also needed a size 14 in trousers in reiss and jigsaw, and a 12 in French connection and whistles.

All I think we can deduce from that is that sizes are very variable even within one shop, and that cut and amount of stretch in a garment matters!

Apologies if has already been posted but not RTFT as phone running out of charge! This website shows how your numbered size varies between shops:
sizes.darkgreener.com

This is deifintely the most interesting suggestion I've seen for the change in sizing.
I know i'm bigger, and i do need to lose some weight, bit i do notice my shoulders are quite broad. Regarding my ribs, i can feel them quite prominently when sucking in, and that even with the extra fat removed from the area i doubt i could fit in to anything smaller than a size 12 top due to my bone structure. I don't have much fat on my calves yet i can't zip up standard knee length boots, which is annoying!

I found my first interview suit while loft clearing...from 25 years ago,I would have been a 14/16 but suit stated 18...... It was 5 inches too small but I still fit a current size 16 😱

I have been a size ten for over 20 years. However I am a stone and a half heavier. Sizing is a joke

I don't know how people can be so confident about their size? Or that that size is slim of fat? If I go to M&S in Abu Dhabi I have to bring 4 sizes of the same outfit into the changing room because I never know how it's going to fit. I can leave with a size 10 dress and a size 16 dress that fit the exact same way. If I order from the US I get a size small or medium. Go to the same shop in Abu Dhabi and I'm fitting into an extra large! There's no rhyme or reason to it!

I think its because the retailers in Abu Dhabi either get stock from Europe or stock from Asia (often both) and despite having UK sizes on the tag the clothes designed for the Asian market are made much smaller and narrower.

I honestly don't think you can use clothing size as a judge of "fatness".

I have clothes ranging from size 6 to size 16. The 6 and 16 are both from the same store and both fit perfectly.

I am generally a size 6 or 8 now, but no way am I small and I don't look a size 6. I am right at the top of the healthy bmi for my height.

There would seem to be many reasons why we're fatter/taller than previous generations. Better nutrition (but more processed/sugary) and we have loads of machinery to do jobs for us. Grandma didn't have a washing machine/food processor/fridge/car.

We are entertained at home with a telly (and remote control - as kids we had to get up to alter volume/change channels. Anyone else remember 'vertical control'?) Life was less home-centred, if you wanted a drink you had to go to the pub - for us it meant walking, also lugging shopping bags home. It's less physical now unless you choose to do sport.

As for sizing - my friend who is really a 20 refuses to buy anything bigger than an 18 because that would make her feel fat.

Sizing is so inconsistent too - you can be a 16 in some shops, 18 or 20 elsewhere. Why? I don't change size whilst walking from one shop to another and I find this utterly ridiculous.

That's true, 8s weren't common everywhere in the 90s.

You could certainly get petite 6s and 8s on the high street in the 1990s. Not so much in the 1980s and before. IME the major size inflation happened berween the 1980s and the 1990, before the obesity epidemic. I was a size 10 in the 1980s, a size 6/8 since then. My weight hasn't changed.

Anecdotal, but I still have a pair of size 6 trousers that I bought in about 1997, and which my size 8 daughter now wears.

I have bought the same dress in different colours from Boden and needed a different size in each - I am bewildered by anyone who says they are a size 12 or whatever because as far as I can tell, stores just stick a number at random in the garment! Online clothes shopping is a nightmare because of this and I wish they would standardise sizing so you could have a reasonable idea if something is likely to fit or not. I have clothes of tons of different sizes in my wardrobe and they don't tell me I'm overweight - sadly, it's the number on the tape measure that tells me (my scales are also bonkers and I can lose 5lbs by simply moving them onto a different tile in the bathroom ). So vanity sizing doesn't really bother me - change them all for all I care, label your clothes with any system you like - just make it consistent and predictable!

Another point I wish to add: don't forget the smoking. A lot of people ate less in the past because they had a fag instead. ;) I know my mother started smoking partly as a way to maintain her weight, and she never stopped until she died.

treeroot I think people are ignorant and don't understand the correlation between body measurements and sizes in RTW. We've lost touch with all that when we stopped making our own clothes and also when RTW manufacturers stopped adding information to labels such as "to fit waist/bust [x inches]". True to size, to modern people, seems to mean that "hey, I usually buy a 12 and/or IMO I should wear a 12 and I fit into a 12 in this brand so ergo they are true to size". Threads like these always show how little people know of this because they're always a bunch of people surprised at the concept of size charts or that the concept of fatness/overweight perhaps is not best measured by RTW size.

Theoldone

For the first time in history we actually have a generation of children who, if current rates continue, their parents will out-live them. Not ALL children obviously, but a surprisingly high percentage.

I think this is not because we are fatter but because we move much much less. Many studies have shown how necessary movement is to health. I read vintage detective stories and in those you'll have people like doctors and engineers saying that they need to catch the six o'cock train and since the railway station is a 40 minute walk away they'll have to get going now - and it's unremarkable. Imagine doctors and engineers traipsing around the countryside on 40 minute walks to take public transport in 2016...

Possibly they want the o'clock train, and not the o'cock train. Depends on whether they went to boarding school I suppose.

True to size, to modern people, seems to mean that "hey, I usually buy a 12 and/or IMO I should wear a 12 and I fit into a 12 in this brand so ergo they are true to size

Indeed, and consequently if a person thinks that they should be a 12 but in a particular item, they have to get a 14, they will review it and say that the sizing is small.

So the reviews are meaningless unless you know the sizing expectations and body measurements of the person who wrote it.

I would much prefer it if clothes sizes actually corresponded to the sizing charts provided. I do know my own measurements and have used them in the past to order things online only to find when things arrive that they don't fit at all. It is so frustrating! I really don't care what the label says- I just want to be able to order with some confidence that things will fit!

I do think that as a population we are getting taller/broader. Teenagers tower over me now and I was pretty much average at school at 5'4''.

Interesting thread.

My great grandma (mother's side), grandma, my mum and me are all the same height - 5.4 and a half. I think that is still the average for women, though I'm sure younger generations are taller.

We're the same frame/body type too, even though my great grandma and grandma had a worse diet than I do they still had that height and skeleton.

My brother is 6.2 though, the tallest ever in our family, so that would show that people are getting taller, but in our family, not the women.

Americans are definitely taller than Europeans, when we go down to the US they are like some sort of uber-race! Tall, broad, beaming with health etc. Apart from the morbidly obese ones of course.

I bought a pair of 8 jeans at the gap in Edinburgh in 2006. It was the smallest size in the shop and it hung off me. And I have a large frame. The lowest my BMI has been was 21 when I wasn't eating at 24. Now I'm generally a gap 10. But when I went the other day I bought one pair of boot cut in 10 (my usual) and a pair of skinnies at a size 16. I usually wear a small dress their.
For me the issue is finding things that fit my hips and shoulders. I can't find things fitted to my waist unless I get them specially made. Everything that I can get over my hips and shoulders will be big on my waist. (Although not so bad now that the 2 inch gap in my abs has made my waist wider.)