To wonder how much parental support their is for grammar schools? schools

[BarbarianMum]

Yet another speech from Teresa May this morning claiming that grammar schools enjoy widespread parental support. As a product of the comprehensive school system and parent of 2 boys going through the same I'm really puzzled by this. Do these schools (and the secondary moderns that go with them) really appeal to the majority? FWIW I don't think either of my boys would have any difficulty getting into one and I still don't think that they are a good idea. So what am I missing?

So its OK to lower the level is it Barbarian? Bugger the bright DC who are being failed, they don't count, remembering they come from poor disadvantaged backgrounds too

What would you say to a child who is being failed by the current system but is not accepted to a grammar school?

You seem to not be answering that point.

I don't know about your local comps. The ones here, by and large, aren't doing so badly

Well if that's good enough for you that's great. Its not good enough for me.
I can't waste my dd potential on a school that may be doing OK.

Big fan of grammars here as I went to one and was offered many opportunities as a result

Great - what if you are clever or just want to learn but aren't accepted. Don't you think those children should have the same opportunities- given Theresa May wants a meritocracy where everyone has opportunities?

Because its not relevant to me, we have no grammar option.

we just have pupils of all abilities being let down

If we were able to get a grammar, then I would want the other schools more focused and able to help the other pupils, But then I am not a believer in grammars creaming off the so called best.

I can't waste my dd potential on a school that may be doing OK

And if they don't get in? Then what? I can see why you would want a grammar school education as it's better than your current choices available.

But the chances are most children won't get in. Then what?

I live in Northumberland, we still have three tier system (which they are trying to destroy), I thank god daily we don't have GS here. My heart sank when I heard the news.

ego

what opportunities are the pupils in my area being offered? where is the meritocracy there?

or is it OK to fail everyone ? is that your version of meritocracy?
we cant let some pupils escape they all have to fail.

I went to a direct-grant girls' grammar school that subsequently went independent. Although it was very selective (pupils were asked to leave at the end of the junior school and after the Lower Third form, if they were not expected to get at least 5 'O' Levels) there was a very good social mix, broad general education (think compulsory cookery and needlework), no bullying and a happy atmosphere. I short, there was a school ethos.
This was a marked contrast to the very large comprehensive school where I did teaching practice. Virtually no social mix at all and far too much notice taken of "branded" clothing items - yes there was a uniform.
My school did take pupils from other schools in the city at 6th Form level, with the necessary academic qualifications.
In my opinion a civilised nation needs a mix of skills. Some are more suited to academic and professional training, others are not. The good thing about my old school was that it provided equality of opportunity regardless of background. There were also pupils from a variety of ethnicities, so not exclusively white by any manner of means.
I just do not see that trying to re-introduce such a system 40 plus years later is going to be too successful, given the "envy and entitlement" culture that has emerged in the interim.

Completely I favour here. Me and DH and our parents and siblings. Best news I've heard in years.

we just have pupils of all abilities being let down

And that's an issue that should be being addressed by OFSTED, the LEA, Government etc. There has been a massive sea change in accountability and I would hope that one of those bodies steps in rather than accept the status quo.

But the chances are most children won't get in. Then what?

^^ what do you propose? More comprehensives?

I think its shameful I really do. But one can see from some posters on here, they want one to say" But I dont care about the oiks, I want my darling into a nice grammar".
I am afraid most people want fair - good schools for all.

I wonder at what point some people may realise the comp system has not worked.

we cant let some pupils escape they all have to fail

No - all pupils need to be given a chance - and that's why there should be accountability and action taken.

That's meritocracy. All pupils being given the best chance and schools being accountable for the education.

I had an interesting conversation with (very intelligent) dh this morning. He went to a comprehensive (by choice there were grammar in the area, but his parents didn't approve). I went to an ex-grammar turned (cheap) private.

I said I thought grammar would have benefitted him. He got quite indignant. He said that he got where he wanted to be and had the opportunity to mix with far more variety people.

So I pointed out that his dm had said he didn't have a friend until sixth form. He thought this was normal as he had only mixed with his form before that and got to meet more people.

So I asked him to think about the friends he would have regarded as friends at school and those he's kept up with. And they're all white, middle class, and went to red brick uni or higher.

I otoh number among my friends a first generation immigrant, a few people who grew up on council estates, caravan parks etc. They'd got assisted places to the school and some went straight from school into apprentices/jobs. I have to say that at the time I wasn't really aware of this as we all mucked in together.
So really although he had people from other class/backgrounds at school he didn't really mix with them. (I think as much by their choice as his!)

I wonder at what point some people may realise the comp system has not worked

Has it though?

What education system would you like to see?

And that's an issue that should be being addressed by OFSTED, the LEA, Government etc

Ah, yes.

They have had nigh on 30 years to step in round my way. How much longer does one need to wait do you think until something, some body, something somewhere feels the need to step in?

Perhaps we are not very good at having bodies to step in - in the UK in which case after nigh on 30 years I would like to draw a line under it and say - enough. Go for anther strategy.

By the way the parent I happened to chat to whom I mentioned earlier is a refugee from Zimbabwe. I think its appalling her dd has had to have outside tutoring because her teachers let her down right before her GCSE's.

It makes me feel sick esp as her mother and her family are lower income. But some feel this is ok to just keep carrying on.

ego

what would you like to see.

I can't imagine the response you would get with your questions firing at this poor Mum I was chatting too.

Where I live there is are Grammars in neighbouring LEA's which traditionally the local children have gone . There has been a downward trend in parents opting to send to Grammar ie. 24 when DD was at school compared with 11 in DS's year. The new newsletter has just said very few have gone.

I think it depends hugely on the area and what's available.

But then I am not a believer in grammars creaming off the so called best

You what? You don't think GS cream off the more academicall able, most likely from richer backgrounds with more involved parents?

Who the fuck do you think GS schools are taking in then? The same mix as a comp? Ha ha right.

what would you like to see

I would like to see a system where all children are being given a decent education that suits their needs.

A system that recognises that some children will be academic and others have other interests - so the system is able to engage children and gives them a reason to study.

A system that does not tolerate poor behaviour and disruption and removes children who can't follow such rules.

A system that also recognises that disruption has many causes and takes steps to help those children who aren't engaged become engaged.

A system that gives teachers the chance to teach without having to worry about behaviour, micromanagement from SMT, over assessment and gives them a manageable workload.

A system where schools are accountable and coasting / failure is not an option.

More money in the system. More time available.

A system that sees pupils as individuals, not data points.

Loads more but that's for starters.

ego if a pupil is clever, they would get into a grammar. From what I recall, albeit some years ago, the 11+ for me, as a moderately intelligent person, was not difficult. If they just want to learn, they will have been applying themselves in primary school and will pass the 11+. I don't see why the bright x % should be penalised.

If they just want to learn, they will have been applying themselves in primary school and will pass the 11+. I don't see why the bright x % should be penalised

Why should the not so bright X% be penalised?

"It's worse now than it was"

That's simply not true!

Huge numbers of children used to leave school with NO qualifications.

That's rare now.

There are vastly fewer children leaving secondary now who are functionally illiterate.

ego sounds great! You'd probably be looking at 1 on 1 or 1 on 2 to achieve all that though sadly.

But not everyone who passes the 11+ gets a grammar school place, do they? I thought they only took the top percentage because more people pass than there are places. So, even if you apply yourself and pass there is no guarantee of a place. I don't think you can fairly equate a place to a reward for hard work

Most middle class parents will do whatever it takes to get their children into GS if they become wide spread. If that requires a lower income for a couple of years to look poorer, they will go part-time. If it requires tutoring, they will do that. Right now, they pretend to be catholic or move house.

80% will not get in. It won't be the gifted poor, recent immigrants or those with parents who have no degree who make the cut most of the time.