To wonder how much parental support their is for grammar schools? schools

[BarbarianMum]

Yet another speech from Teresa May this morning claiming that grammar schools enjoy widespread parental support. As a product of the comprehensive school system and parent of 2 boys going through the same I'm really puzzled by this. Do these schools (and the secondary moderns that go with them) really appeal to the majority? FWIW I don't think either of my boys would have any difficulty getting into one and I still don't think that they are a good idea. So what am I missing?

I went to Grammar School and loved it and I would want my children to have the same opportunity to go.

They would have the choice, like I did, to choose one of the 2 local grammars or the local secondarys and would have a good education at any of them. The Grammars would be single sex and push them more, but I had lots of friends at the other schools who got on fine!

I don't really get how it disadvantages poorer children. My class (10 years ago) was a complete mixture of girls from different backgrounds, posh areas, deprived areas. We were clever enough to pass the test so they were offered a place. The majority of us would not have been able to go to Private school, but the Grammar was free.

icedvanillalatte

'From Gaia to the Selfish Gene'

www.amazon.co.uk/Gaia-Selfish-Genes-Selected-Writings/dp/0262521784/ref=sr_1_25?ie=UTF8&qid=1473579577&sr=8-25&keywords=selfish+gene

"From Gaia to Selfish Genes is a different kind of anthology. Lively excerpts from the popular writings of leading theorists in the life sciences blend in a seamless presentation of the controversies and bold ideas driving contemporary biological research.

Selections span scales from the biosphere to the cell and DNA, and disciplines from global ecology to behavior and genetics, and also reveals the links between biology and philosophy. They plunge the reader into debates about heredity and environment, competition and cooperation, randomness and determinism, and the meaning of individuality"

An interesting discussion - from individual behaviour through to the effects of cooperation on a group.

I don't really get how it disadvantages poorer children

So a wasted Grammar school education if you don't get that. Surely you can use your intelligence to see how poorer children might well be at a disadvantage when it comes to being selected based on a selection test.

Awesome, sounds good! Apologies for the post; it's cause I get so annoyed at newspapers etc. talking about "the selfish gene" as if it's a gene that makes you selfish 😂

This paper looks interesting, as it looks at the impact of low socioeconomic status on children's performance in verbal and nonverbal cognitive tests. They seem to be saying that environmental factors cause a greater variation in intelligence in children from low-SES than children from high-SES families. I'm not good at reading scientific studies but I wonder if this kind of thing might be interesting to read.

Aside from that, I'm working if we could somehow ban tutoring 😂 That won't get rid of things like the effect of attending different primary schools or environmental or cultural effects but it might at least make me feel better

It is an interesting idea - and such a range of theories - of which we can see on here. Acting in our own self interests - as a person, family, country or looking out for everyone. Education is just one - but it spreads to everywhere. Look at immigration - selection, putting up barriers or thinking of the greater good? Taxes, climate change.

A lot of similar arguments can be made - and different countries seem to have different philosophies towards acting for the individual or acting for the group.

#deep

Greater variation in intelligence test results, that is.

Aside from that, I'm working if we could somehow ban tutoring

Ah.

I do tutoring. Not 11+ as there are no grammar schools here but I do maths tutoring.

I do it for the money. Because I need it. But it is unfair on those families who can't afford it.

I'm sure there must be research out there somewhere teasing out how much children from low-SES background are disadvantaged in verbal and nonverbal reasoning tests.

I am a parent who does not support the grammar system or the re-introduction of new grammars.

I am sick of Academy chains, the constant interference with schools, at short notice, every time the gvt decide to champion some new un-evidenced notion.

I meant wondering, obviously

I have a relative who's had to leave his teaching job due to health problems, who refuses to do tutoring for that reason.

Tbh you don't need tutoring. You need parental support, the plethora of assessment books available and a child committed to passing the -1 plus. My boys attend the same gram st school 40 miles away, take two trains in the morning and two at home time. It is well worth the disruption . They are in a cohort of fellow academic and competitive children. We need more grammar schools locally.

Having been through the whole secondary school transfer with 2 dcs and amother one soon to go up I don't support seperate grammar schools for the top 20% but want proper streaming within comprehensives.

Sadly it seems each government favours a particular subset of pupils to the neglect of others. 5 years ago when I was looking at state secondary schools for dc1 the focus and concern was all about pushing pupils from a D grade to a C grade GCSEs. All the schools had a D/C grade border coordinator and the pupils who were solidly A-C graders were not given extra help to improve their grades.

I think the real focus for education now should be improving vocational/technical training in secondary schools For the dcs that are not inspired by the thought of studying academic subjects and hate school as a result

I think education has a lot of issues at the moment. I don't think this speech actually addressed any of those issues.

I think the whole GS versus secondary modern is a moot point actually. If we want to really improve education for all children we need to get rid of the big schools we have. Having taught in both state comp and indie I can honestly say the big difference, as far as the school's contribution goes at least (in comparison to the child's socioeconomic background or parental support) is school size and class size.

The brightest kids can fly in a small group and the weakest can be properly supported by the teacher and any teaching assistant present. A small school, where all teachers know all kids regardless of teaching them, means there's very few opportunities for the behaviour issues to occur which are so common in big comps.

If the school can tailor the curriculum to suit the needs of the kids so there's a mix of academic and vocational subjects then you can teach kids of all abilities in one school (though obviously not necessarily in the same class).

Having lots of smaller schools with small classes (think 10 rather than 30 pupils) is going to be ridiculously expensive but I think the system we have currently doesn't work, introducing more GS also won't work for the benefit of all of society so maybe it's worth the expense?

I don't really get how it disadvantages poorer children

Because poorer children overwhelmingly don't get into grammars, (grammars are socially selective) and the data shows that in the most selective areas, disadvantaged children perform much worse than those in non-selective areas. Far from improving social mobility, grammar schools seem to screw over the poor as a whole.

If tutoring is 'banned' then this just means grammars will be completely full of prep kids instead, who are, essentially, receiving 11+ everyday. At state primaries there is no help towards 11+ prep, hence tutoring to level out the playing field between state and private.

Agreed that this does not help poorer kids.
Our lical grammar is offering 20 per cent of places to PP this year and is lowering its qualifying score for them to help address these issues.

Tbh you don't need tutoring. You need parental support, the plethora of assessment books available and a child committed to passing the -1 plus.

That's still tutoring - just the DIY variety! Though the thought of a 1 plus is a little disturbing!

That's still tutoring - just the DIY variety

Exactly.
Neither of my parents were educated past the age of 14 and my dad's English is patchy at best. If you think they were in a position to get me through the 11+ with anything but moral support you're in denial.

Bam private schools then 😂😂😂

Ban.